On the Origins of the so-called Berber Sabres

[TVV]

I just came across a photo from the Military Museum in Barcelona, which shows an interesting display, featuring two of the mysterious "Berber" sabres and some other weapons, one of which is an espada ancha and the other one is a sword associated with Brazil, if I rememebr correctly.

Does this grouping provide further evidence that those so-called Berber sabres are actually a Spanish Colonial weapon, which comes from the Americas, instead of from the Maghreb as previously believed?

[ariel]

I have mentioned once that , while visiting Versailles, I saw a big oil painting in the Palace, depicting a battle between the French and the Arabs. In the right lower corner there was a figure of a Berber wielding the classical "berber" sabre, with a reverse point and a peculiar handle similar to what you show ( ## 2 and 3 from above in the grouping).
Regretfully, I did not have a camera with me but if any of you go there, please be better prepared:-)
Spain had colonies in N. Africa at the same time and waged war against the same Berbers as the French did. I am not surprised they lumped all the spoils of war in a single pile.

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for posting this Teodor!!! The subject of these weapons has often been a topic over many years and remains, along with others, somewhat unresolved. Tirri suggests these sabres are of Spanish Morocco regions, and when these first came into the collecting community nearing two decades ago, they were typically represented as Berber and of regions of the Rif.
The blades seem to invariably have had the curiously profiled tip, that was usually on a British M1796 light cavalry sabre blade. The guardless grip of course recalls the similar form of the eastern cousins of these, the flyssa of the Kabyles and contiguous Berber groups.
On these blades I have seen markings that suggest Spanish provenance, and after the Napoleonic campaigns in the Peninsula, there were considerable numbers of these British blades present that could easily have been sent to Spanish colonies in Morocco. There were also considerable numbers of the British patterns sent to Portugal.

Of further note, is that many of these sabres have turned up in groupings of Spanish colonial weapons, in Mexican collections, and there are suggestions of these being of Cuban and provenance to the America's. I would point out that the shellguard weapon at the top is of a form recently discovered to be an interesting amalgam of espada ancha and these types of sabres, now revealed to be the Brazilian form of these weapons. Note the niche at the top of the grip reflecting this characteristic in the well known Moroccan sa'if known as 'nimcha'.

I have seen suggestions of even associations with the decor of these sabres
to Indonesian and possibly Phillipine archipelagos, which may be supported by the trade and colonial routes of Spain.

Ariel, excellent note on that painting reflecting presence of these swords in use! I would love to see that painting, and as you well point out, Spain and France both had profound presence in these regions. I think one of the most puzzling factors concerning these 'Berber sabres' is that they are notably absent from all the comprehensive collections and resources on the arms of Morocco or North Africa. Charles Buttin, the highly esteemed collector and authority of weapons of the end of the 19th century and into the 20th has no example of these in his incredibly comprehensive catalog, nor are these seen in Holstein, Alain, Moser or other prominent collections.

There is the mystery...why? and we really need to reach the museums of Morocco and others in these regions to see if provenanced examples can be found.

All best regards,
Jim

[Andrew]

I'm always wary of assigning too much import to what anonymous museum curators put together in a given exhibit. Too often I think someone took a bunch of things they thought would look good together and put them all in a case...

[TVV]

Well, I have one of those sabres with the inscription "Para Los Valientes Dominicanos", which suggests a Caribbean, rather than a North African origin. And I remember that Jim has mentioned that these usually appear in groupings of weapons from Central America and Cuba.
I guess, unless we see a picture of someone wielding such a sabre, we will never know for certain.
I would prefer those to turn out to be from North Africa, but I am finding myself leaning entirely towards the New World.
Regards,
Teodor

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I'm always wary of assigning too much import to what anonymous museum curators put together in a given exhibit. Too often I think someone took a bunch of things they thought would look good together and put them all in a case...

Very well said Andrew!!
I have seen groupings of weapons lumped together completely incongruently by presumably responsible authorities, resulting in many of the unfortunate attributions that have plagued arms scholars for years. Case in point, the Calvert catalog "Spanish Arms and Armour" which perputuates these types of errors in a number of instances, especially the curious 'manople'.
Burton, in his "Book of the Sword" carries forth errors of Auguste Demmin (1877) and finally noted by Buttin in his work later published (1933).

The trophies/souveniers of one generation, often become grouped in estate sales by unknowledgable individuals and presumption, and classifications and provenance hopelessly lost. I have seen donations to European museums that piled African and even Asian weapons together, mostly in efforts at aesthetic or unusual groupings, leading more to identification travesties.

All the best,
Jim

[Dmitry]

I don't have this sword any more, as I have traded it for another piece just a few days ago, but the hilt is quite like the one on the top photo.
I also have another one, also quite similar in style, which I am very fond of, even though this is not my bag.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I don't have this sword any more, as I have traded it for another piece just a few days ago, but the hilt is quite like the one on the top photo.
I also have another one, also quite similar in style, which I am very fond of, even though this is not my bag.

Thank you Dmitry, great photos. As indicated in my earlier post these have been determined to be Brazilian from probably earlier part of 19th century. I have one of these which has a British blade of about this period, again leaning toward the entrance of these British blades onto Spanish trade sphere. It seems earlier research also has suggested a number of these unusual weapons are included in the relatively obscure armouries of these parts of the America's and Caribbean.

I have always hoped for North Africa too Teodor, but remain somewhat appeased by the fact that the trade connections between the Spanish colonies in North Africa and the America's are the denominator that seems to link these unusual weapons.

All best regards,
Jim

[pallas]

i saw one for sale that was exactly like examples 2 and 3 in the first picture that was labeled a "corsican cavalry saber"......very strange....it had the "manuel" marks on it too...