Transitional, Victorian, Other?

Hotspur · 13th October 2019, 04:33 AM

Curiosity got the better of me with this one. I can't quite make out some facets of how this hilt was put together but I am somehow thinking it is of around 1700, or perhaps a little earlier. Then again, I may be way, way off. Either I did well, or paid a premium for a modernistic take on this form. A military smallsword, or ?????

Cheers
GC

corrado26 · 13th October 2019, 10:17 AM

I am not sure but at least one mark is very similar to marks used by Spanish sword cuttlers of Toledo.

Hotspur · 13th October 2019, 03:38 PM

Thank you. I am pretty sure the other mark references the Kingdom of Castile. I am having a hard time putting the hilt in the 16th century though. The acute point to the blade makes for it being a serious item, vs a decorator.

Cheers
GC

MitsuWa. · 14th October 2019, 03:30 AM

Your hilt, handle, pommel and guard appear to be a casting rather than individual components from what I can see in the photos. What construction detail were you trying to figure out?

Hotspur · 14th October 2019, 06:19 AM

I don't believe the ferrules are cast to the grip, nor the plates and annelets part of the grip casting, with the pommel and peen blocks separate as well.

At any rate, such castings coming in by the mid 17th century.

I don't have a "twin" to compare it to, hence my being unconvinced of just about anything right now. Once in hand, I can be more sure of how many pieces comprise the hilt.

Cheers
GC

fernando · 14th October 2019, 02:37 PM

Glen, you know i am not a connoisseur at all but, i dare say that, the emblem for Castile in its single form dates far back in time, later replaced by the 'composite' Leon y Castela coat of arms, more consonant in period with what should appear in this sword. Also i doubt that the Toledo smith mark suggested by Udo is the one in your blade.
So, without questioning the authenticity of your sword, i seem to question the originality of its marks ... unless they were a personalized feature.
But then again, don't pay much notice to my mumbo jumbo.

Ed · 18th October 2019, 04:27 PM

Sent some pictures off to a dealer pal of mine.

Looks like a decorator to me. Blade and application of the markings seem odd.

Hotspur · 18th October 2019, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed

Sent some pictures off to a dealer pal of mine.

Looks like a decorator to me. Blade and application of the markings seem odd.

Respectfully who is the dealer?

Cheers
GC

Jim McDougall · 18th October 2019, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Respectfully who is the dealer?

Cheers
GC

Again, really hard to tell with pics, and this seems a fully serviceable sword by the physical description. Best discuss the second hand opinion of the dealer privately as far as his identity, but explanation of his analysis reasons would be interesting for those of us discussing this weapon.

fernando · 18th October 2019, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Best discuss the second hand opinion of the dealer privately as far as his identity, but explanation of his analysis reasons would be interesting for those of us discussing this weapon.

Yes ... absolutely.

Hotspur · 18th October 2019, 07:52 PM

Point taken guys but Ed's comment could have been conveyed privately as well. I was simply curious as to whom he refers. It is a pretty small world. I'm not here for the politics.

That opinion aside, here are some resized images. All fittings are ferrous and imo, steel or iron. The plates do appear cast but I believe I may have mentioned cast steel was coming into vogue by the mid 17th century. I do not think the plates were cast together with the body of the roped guard but joined hot. I have done my best to show sections that were assembled. I have scrubbed a section of the blade and will be taking off the grunge/varnish, whatever that top coat is. You can somewhat see it had been sharp and then somewhat bated at some point. If I return with after photos, that will reinforce my take on a shortened or re-purposed blade. I could guess it might have been from an older broken estoc or rapier but that is just speculation.

As this venue is not an exclusive inquiry and presentation of this piece, I can hope that if I happen to cross post a name or few that some can understand it is, collectively, a pretty small world and we all should be able to discuss a given object. I'm done for now.

Cheers
GC

Three more in the next post

13th October 2019, 04:33 AM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Transitional, Victorian, Other? Curiosity got the better of me with this one. I can't quite make out some facets of how this hilt was put together but I am somehow thinking it is of around 1700, or perhaps a little earlier. Then again, I may be way, way off. Either I did well, or paid a premium for a modernistic take on this form. A military smallsword, or ????? Cheers GC Attached Images

13th October 2019, 10:17 AM	#2
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,204	I am not sure but at least one mark is very similar to marks used by Spanish sword cuttlers of Toledo. Attached Images

14th October 2019, 06:19 AM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	I don't believe the ferrules are cast to the grip, nor the plates and annelets part of the grip casting, with the pommel and peen blocks separate as well. At any rate, such castings coming in by the mid 17th century. I don't have a "twin" to compare it to, hence my being unconvinced of just about anything right now. Once in hand, I can be more sure of how many pieces comprise the hilt. Cheers GC Last edited by Hotspur; 14th October 2019 at 06:40 AM.

18th October 2019, 07:52 PM	#11
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Point taken guys but Ed's comment could have been conveyed privately as well. I was simply curious as to whom he refers. It is a pretty small world. I'm not here for the politics. That opinion aside, here are some resized images. All fittings are ferrous and imo, steel or iron. The plates do appear cast but I believe I may have mentioned cast steel was coming into vogue by the mid 17th century. I do not think the plates were cast together with the body of the roped guard but joined hot. I have done my best to show sections that were assembled. I have scrubbed a section of the blade and will be taking off the grunge/varnish, whatever that top coat is. You can somewhat see it had been sharp and then somewhat bated at some point. If I return with after photos, that will reinforce my take on a shortened or re-purposed blade. I could guess it might have been from an older broken estoc or rapier but that is just speculation. As this venue is not an exclusive inquiry and presentation of this piece, I can hope that if I happen to cross post a name or few that some can understand it is, collectively, a pretty small world and we all should be able to discuss a given object. I'm done for now. Cheers GC Three more in the next post Attached Images

13th October 2019, 03:38 PM	#3
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Thank you. I am pretty sure the other mark references the Kingdom of Castile. I am having a hard time putting the hilt in the 16th century though. The acute point to the blade makes for it being a serious item, vs a decorator. Cheers GC

14th October 2019, 03:30 AM	#4
MitsuWa. Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 22	Your hilt, handle, pommel and guard appear to be a casting rather than individual components from what I can see in the photos. What construction detail were you trying to figure out?

14th October 2019, 02:37 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Glen, you know i am not a connoisseur at all but, i dare say that, the emblem for Castile in its single form dates far back in time, later replaced by the 'composite' Leon y Castela coat of arms, more consonant in period with what should appear in this sword. Also i doubt that the Toledo smith mark suggested by Udo is the one in your blade. So, without questioning the authenticity of your sword, i seem to question the originality of its marks ... unless they were a personalized feature. But then again, don't pay much notice to my mumbo jumbo.

18th October 2019, 04:27 PM	#7
Ed Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 237	Sent some pictures off to a dealer pal of mine. Looks like a decorator to me. Blade and application of the markings seem odd.