It certainly is very old ... but what is it ?

[fernando]

Total length 36 cms. (14").
Pattern of marks on both sides has a similar tendence, although more extended on the front. On the back, near the socket, there is small symbol ... maker's mark ?
As so often with these things, it can be seen by the beaten socket bottom, that it was some time used as a "modern utensile", like a chisel.
It was gathered in the Country interior, in a tiny country village with a very old monastery and a medieval tower, this now used for residential tourism. This doesn't mean this piece once belonged there, but it has all the looks of being a very old item ... in my ignorance, i would dare 17th century ??? .
One thing that intrigues me, not being a connoisseur, is the edges of the blade, that are completely "squared".
Although the socket and the general shape of this piece makes me think this is a weapon, i wouldn't be sure without a help from someone who being more within this area, or has ever seen something similar.
Gentlemen, i will apreciate your coments.
Fernando

[Rick]

A spear or lance butt / shoe ?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Rick

A spear or lance butt / shoe ?

Good hint ... indeed .
But then, being a secondary component, to be used near (and into) the ground, why the decoration ?
... Just thinking out loud .

[David]

Originally Posted by fernando

But then, being a secondary component, to be used near (and into) the ground, why the decoration ?

Why not?

[A. G. Maisey]

How about a depth gauge for a grain bin?

[Royston]

I have seen these marks before on African spear butts. Cannot remember which ones but Kenyan area.

Royston

[fernando]

Thsnk you all, Gentlemen,

Originally Posted by David

Why not?

Yes your'e right, why not ? Well, i actually wouldn't know, that is, the decoration issue alone might not be the obstacle to the lance/pike butt plausibility, but the structure "ratio" ( length versus thickness), don't make the right combination for a device which purpose is to hit or even penetrate the ground, without easily bending. In case its version was more that one to serve as a spear back support, it lacks the minimum of sharpeness .

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

How about a depth gauge for a grain bin?

Not being so sure about the haft weapon butt hipothesis, i would prefer it, in this case

Originally Posted by Royston

I have seen these marks before on African spear butts. Cannot remember which ones but Kenyan area.

I don't know enough to bet, but i don't think this thing is African; the iron thickness, the socket and blade shapes... The marks don't have to be a pinpoint; they are "universal" lines, in the due context they can be found all over ... in my igorance .
Can you remember where you saw those Kenyan marks?

Fernando

[VANDOO]

METAL BUTT SPIKES NOT ONLY SERVE THE PURPOSE OF ENABELING THE SPEAR TO BE STUCK UPRIGHT IF THE GROUND IS SOFT ENOUGH, BUT MAY ALSO AID IN THE BALANCE OF A THROWN SPEAR ?. THEY COULD ALSO BE USED AS A SORT OF TOOL IN SOME INSTANCES, THE DESIGNS ON THIS ONE ARE ALL SIMPLE LINE DESIGNS USED JUST ABOUT EVERYWHERE AND ARE A VERY PRIMITAVE SORT I NOTE IT HAS A HOLE FOR ATACHMENT TO A SHAFT. THE SOCKET IS A VERY OPEN TYPE AND WITH JUST ONE NAIL TO HOLD, IT WOULD NOT MAKE A VERY GOOD WEAPON AS IT WOULD BE MORE PRONE TO COME LOSE.
NOW FOR SOME FUN I WILL PROPOSE A USE WHICH MAY NOT HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN THOUGHT OF. THE SQUARE FORM AND THE DESIGNS WOULD BE GOOD FOR SCRATCHING BETWEEN THE TOES OR REMOVING MUD WITHOUT BENDING DOWN A HANDY TOOL FOR THOSE WHO ARE ALWAYS BAREFOOT.

[M ELEY]

www.classicalfencing.com/mcweaponslance.php
A quarter way down page, pic of 4 lances with one being Span 18th cent (you will see the resenblence)

http://www.collectableweapons.com/Li...info.php?id=65
Shows primitive/crudeness of some pieces

http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...tore.html#item
Note hole in base. Description says decorative notches/barbs, but unfortunately pic doesn't show this.

[fernando]

Once again thank you for your input and interesting links, Mark.
Surely i am with you on the type of weapon this must be.
As for its origins, we are not so distant, either. That reminds me that, over here, when a piece can not be distinguished as whether being Portuguese or Spanish, due to the obvious inter influences, they call it Iberian, to give the riddle a sporty solution .
I confess i get desperate when i can not precise the exact origin of a piece , but that's the usual invoice when one keeps acquiring "unindexed" stuff
Maybe one of these days i find someone who has actuly seen a thing like this ... either in hand or in books.
Thanks again,
Fernando

[A. G. Maisey]

I've been following this thread waiting for somebody to tell us what this object is, but so far I don't think anyone has come close.

If I look at this thing, I see a tool. I don't know what sort of tool, or what for, but to my eye it lacks the basic design necessary to make it a weapon.

It has flat edges that are not, and have not been sharpened.

It has a half socket rather than a full socket.

The socket is comparatively short.

It is of iron, not steel.

It is not of robust construction.

At 14 inches in length, and of this form, it would not accept the cross stress necessary for a thrusting weapon.

I'd be very happy to take this implement into the garden and use it as a dibble-stick. I'd be happy to take it into the barn and use it as grain gauge. I would not be happy to have it in my hand if I was going to meet somebody intent on doing me harm.

The Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam may be the place to go to find out exactly what this implement is, and what it was used for.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The Tropenmuseum in Amsterdam may be the place to go to find out exactly what this implement is, and what it was used for.

Not so handy ... 1156 miles from my place, with three countries in between . But sounds like a good idea; pitty they don't have a contact line to email them pictures for identification .

[A. G. Maisey]

Fernando, everything you put forward is supportable, and in a situation such as this, we could discuss forever without ever reaching an agreement.


Short sockets?--yes, I have some myself, and I've seen others, but where I have seen their occurrence it has not been in combination with a long blade. Think on this a moment:- if you have a long blade subjected to twisting or turning forces, or even if only subjected to a sideways force, you need a long socket, or a long tang to support the blade, if you do not have sufficient socket or tang for support you have something that will definitely fail in service. This is basic weapons engineering.You might get away with sub-standard design in a lance point, especially if it is a lance of a type not intended for repeat usage, but if we look at the flimsy overall design of this object, can we honestly say that we are looking at a lance point?

The same counter argument that I have used for a short socket, applies to a half socket, but more so. A short, half socket on a long, flimsy blade lacking edges?

Agreed, nothing wrong with iron for a weapon, or for a tool, in fact, some primitive societies prefer iron---or these days mild steel---to properly heat treated steel, for the simple reason that it can be sharpened on the job. But there is one problem with iron:- it cannot be heat treated and it bends easily. As a short thrusting point on a hunting spear, or lance, it will work as well as steel; as a cutting implement it will work well. provided there is a strong central rib or strong back, or blade depth to support the edge, As a long, narrow implement with flat faces and flat edges, it will buckle the first time it is subjected to any force.Again, basic weapons engineering.

On the subject of bizarre weapons, I can only agree. This could well have been some rural person's idea of exactly what was needed to guard the home hearth---I stress "could have been" ---it equally might not have been, but anything under the sun is possible.

As to what sort of tool I have no idea. My dibble-stick and grain gauge are just things that I could see myself using it for, yes, certainly dibble-sticks are normally round, but the same mind that conceived this as a weapon to put behind the kitchen door, might also have conceived of it as the ideal shape to plant pumpkin seeds.

The punched marks on the object? Yes, they could be read as decorative, but the only person who could say so with any certainty would be the original owner. They can also be read as marks to gauge something. To gauge what? Who knows? I do not. But my proposition of them being gauge marks is no less preposterous than the proposition that they are decorative.

In short, I have no idea what it is, and it seems neither does anybody else. Somebody, at some time in the past fabricated it for some use.

We can possibly assume that when it was fabricated some basic design principles were in the mind of the maker.

Can anybody see any possible weapon application in this design?

I for one cannot.

[fernando]

Hi Alan, thank you for your input.

I started this thread by admiting i wasn't sure myself whether this piece was a weapon, specially because of the flat edges, hoping that some member had ever came across this type of object. So i am still prepared for this thing suddenly being identified as a tool of some sort ... for my sadness .

... This not meaning that all your consideration points couldn't be discussed, each one per se, although the sum of them has a lot of weight .

Half sockets may be seen in haft weapons ... at least in ancient rustic ones; i have them myself.

Short sockets also occur in similar situations; again i have one myself, and with only one fixation point.

Made of iron instead of steel ... why not ? There are zillions of old weapons, namely of rural production, made of iron; and again i have a couple of those, eventually the same ones quoted above.

Maybe you have a point on the fragile construction, as also on the flat edges but, considering the countless bizarre weapons that were made by village smiths in the old days, that's not totally out of question.

Further i would say that, this thing being a tool, i may totally wrong but, by no means i see it as a dibble-stick or, much less, as a grain gauge. To my igorant eyes, the first one would more logically be roundish and the second would have the necessary gauge marks, not decoration crosses; but what do i know ?

Please take all i said as if i were thinking out loud ... sort of guessing what it can't be, instead of concluding what it can only be.

Thanks again for coming in.
Fernando