Mandara short sword / dagger???

katana · 25th January 2008, 11:23 AM

Hi ,
picked this up....very similar in hilt design to Tim's example.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=mandara

The blade does not have a central rib though. It has a flattened diamond shaped profile, nicely tempered, forged with stamped/engraved designs. Steel seems to be good quality showing some age patina......almost certainly early 20th century...but wouldn't be surprised if it was earlier. Blade is approx. 4mm maximum thickness and just over 16" (41 cms) in length.
The hilt has the so called 'skull crusher' pommel , similar to the Tebu daggers, but this has a raised ridge around the edge , both sides (a feature I have not seen before). Handle is plaited/woven leather thonging over fine 'cotton' type material.

The scabbard is leather cored with a thinner leather covering which is hand stitched with braided leather 'detailing'. Four small holes near the throat of the scabbard looks to me that an arm loop was once fitted there, suggesting that this is an arm dagger.

Any ideas gentlemen ......thank you

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 25th January 2008, 06:49 PM

A grand old lady of a piece

Lew · 25th January 2008, 07:26 PM

Well done !

Lew

katana · 25th January 2008, 07:30 PM

Hi Tim and Lew,
thank you

do you think this is from the Mandara region?

I am impressed with the quality of the blade.... still quite sharp.....I'm fairly certain that this is a native blade and not a re-worked European one.

Will post some close-ups (later) of the forged pommel ...with its raised 'border'...in case it will aid ID

Kind Regards David

Luc LEFEBVRE · 25th January 2008, 11:45 PM

I think it could be from the Mandara mountains.
Luc

Jim McDougall · 25th January 2008, 11:50 PM

Me too.

Jim McDougall · 26th January 2008, 06:16 AM

Ok, now that we have a consensus that this is indeed a nice piece, I wanted to go with David's serious interest in trying to consider possible origins for it. The earlier thread on the most interesting Mandara arm dagger was very helpful, and that was a great learning experience on the weapons of these regions. I honestly had not thought of arm 'daggers' ever reaching such length, but as was shown, the weapon was worn pommel down with the sword/dagger in scabbard upward, which might have been considered I suppose some kind of quick draw rig

, worn on the left arm.

What is fascinating about David's sword is that it has the woven leather seen on the Mandara type daggers/swords referenced by Tim as being from "Waffen aus Zentral Afrika", as well as the pommel shape, though this seems more stylized as might be the case with a more modern (20th c.) example.
I'm curious about the pommels on these, which as suggested, seem to reflect those on the Tebu daggers associated with Fulani from Chad, which are of course arm daggers. The 'skull crusher' appellation is interesting, and I'd like to hear more on that, as well as what possible symbolism or image these distinct pommels are supposed to suggest.

What is key here is the clear indications of trans Saharan trade, and tribal interaction. While the hilt itself suggests the arm swords of the Mandarawa people of mountain regions of Cameroon, the pommel and hilt shape is seen on
the tebu arm daggers from regions to the east in Chad. The diffusion of these weapons seems obviously to have moved relatively indiscriminantly in either direction , and the size of the weapons themselves also seem to have varied much as seen in many ethnographic forms.

The blade on David's sword is the next point of interest, as it suggests its origins, in form at least, from even farther east beyond Chad. The blade is remarkably similar to the swords found in Dongolan regions of the Sudan, in its shape as well as the profiled outline in motif on the blade. Most examples of these blades seem to carry representations of a crocodile in the blade center.

This interesting sword, as already observed is probably early 20th century, and with the hilt, probably from any number of points along Saharan routes between the Mandaran western terminals to those in Chad, with a blade form from either a Dongolan influenced smith or a blade from those regions.

These are my ideas David, as you asked, and as always I hope to hear those of others.

All very best regards,
Jim

25th January 2008, 11:23 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Mandara short sword / dagger??? Hi , picked this up....very similar in hilt design to Tim's example. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=mandara The blade does not have a central rib though. It has a flattened diamond shaped profile, nicely tempered, forged with stamped/engraved designs. Steel seems to be good quality showing some age patina......almost certainly early 20th century...but wouldn't be surprised if it was earlier. Blade is approx. 4mm maximum thickness and just over 16" (41 cms) in length. The hilt has the so called 'skull crusher' pommel , similar to the Tebu daggers, but this has a raised ridge around the edge , both sides (a feature I have not seen before). Handle is plaited/woven leather thonging over fine 'cotton' type material. The scabbard is leather cored with a thinner leather covering which is hand stitched with braided leather 'detailing'. Four small holes near the throat of the scabbard looks to me that an arm loop was once fitted there, suggesting that this is an arm dagger. Any ideas gentlemen ......thank you Regards David Attached Images

25th January 2008, 06:49 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A grand old lady of a piece

25th January 2008, 07:26 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well done ! Lew

25th January 2008, 07:30 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim and Lew, thank you do you think this is from the Mandara region? I am impressed with the quality of the blade.... still quite sharp.....I'm fairly certain that this is a native blade and not a re-worked European one. Will post some close-ups (later) of the forged pommel ...with its raised 'border'...in case it will aid ID Kind Regards David

25th January 2008, 11:45 PM	#5
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 472	I think it could be from the Mandara mountains. Luc

25th January 2008, 11:50 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Me too.

26th January 2008, 06:16 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Ok, now that we have a consensus that this is indeed a nice piece, I wanted to go with David's serious interest in trying to consider possible origins for it. The earlier thread on the most interesting Mandara arm dagger was very helpful, and that was a great learning experience on the weapons of these regions. I honestly had not thought of arm 'daggers' ever reaching such length, but as was shown, the weapon was worn pommel down with the sword/dagger in scabbard upward, which might have been considered I suppose some kind of quick draw rig , worn on the left arm. What is fascinating about David's sword is that it has the woven leather seen on the Mandara type daggers/swords referenced by Tim as being from "Waffen aus Zentral Afrika", as well as the pommel shape, though this seems more stylized as might be the case with a more modern (20th c.) example. I'm curious about the pommels on these, which as suggested, seem to reflect those on the Tebu daggers associated with Fulani from Chad, which are of course arm daggers. The 'skull crusher' appellation is interesting, and I'd like to hear more on that, as well as what possible symbolism or image these distinct pommels are supposed to suggest. What is key here is the clear indications of trans Saharan trade, and tribal interaction. While the hilt itself suggests the arm swords of the Mandarawa people of mountain regions of Cameroon, the pommel and hilt shape is seen on the tebu arm daggers from regions to the east in Chad. The diffusion of these weapons seems obviously to have moved relatively indiscriminantly in either direction , and the size of the weapons themselves also seem to have varied much as seen in many ethnographic forms. The blade on David's sword is the next point of interest, as it suggests its origins, in form at least, from even farther east beyond Chad. The blade is remarkably similar to the swords found in Dongolan regions of the Sudan, in its shape as well as the profiled outline in motif on the blade. Most examples of these blades seem to carry representations of a crocodile in the blade center. This interesting sword, as already observed is probably early 20th century, and with the hilt, probably from any number of points along Saharan routes between the Mandaran western terminals to those in Chad, with a blade form from either a Dongolan influenced smith or a blade from those regions. These are my ideas David, as you asked, and as always I hope to hear those of others. All very best regards, Jim