Help identifying a Brumese Sword c.1860

worldwide · 31st December 2006, 12:54 PM

Hi all,

I'n new to swords and also new to this forum. I recently purchased a sword which I think is Burmese (the seller told me that it is dated around 1860). I have uploaded pictures to the following link (the sword has some grease on it which I need to clean):

http://www.hebeixingyi.co.uk/sword.htm

Anyone ever come across anything like this before? Or have I been cheated?!

Thanks!

RhysMichael · 31st December 2006, 07:43 PM

First of all welcome to the forum. You will find a group of folks who like dha/darb here. A word of warning these swords are addictive.

This is definitely a dha ( or more precisely a dha-lwe ). Most of the time when I see weapons from that area with that thick black grease on it I am skeptical about them. That is often put on to make them look older in the pictures. That being said I personally do not think that is the case with this sword. The koftgari on the blade looks to be of good quality as does the metalwork and and niello with the handle. The silver looks to be of good quality. The style is consistant with other swords from Burma and a late 19th early 20th century date does not seem out of line with what I can tell from the pictures. Mark, Ian, Andrew, Puff and a few others here I am sure can tell you a great deal more. Not knowing what you paid ( and we do not do appraisals here ) I cannot say if you got a good deal but again from the pictures and not handling the sword I think it meets the description and is not a tourist piece

A picture of a similar one from the Macau exhibit
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...221-mib06a.jpg

Here is the only niello handled dha I have

Some places to look for more info
http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/
http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm

My few dha can be seen here
http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Dha.html ( but updates are needed a couple of the items on that page I no longer have and I have a couple that are not on it. )

If you ever decide to part with it feel free to look me up

worldwide · 31st December 2006, 08:22 PM

Hi Rhys

Many thanks for the welcome and the prompt response! The info you have provided is amazingly detailed!

I bought the sword yesterday for £450.00 from a dealer in London's Portobello Road market. My aim was to buy a katana (a few of which were going for £700) but when I saw the dha I was just fascinated by the design on the blade. The seller seemed honest and descent and did tell me that his knowledge of swords was limited and he could only give me the description given to him by another.

I am trying to find someone in London who can clean the sword and would very much appreciate anyone who may have any advice or recommendations. I will then try and post some better pictures!

Again, thanks for getting back to me with so much detail.

Hope you have a happy new year!

JT

RhysMichael · 1st January 2007, 03:15 AM

I'm afraid I do not know anyone in England though I am sure there are people there to do it. If you want to ship it to the US I have used Philip Tom and he does excellent work. Another person who does such work is Jose Albovias. I have not used him but I have seen some work he did for other forum members and it also is great. Both of them are forum members and they may know someone out your way. Sorry I am not more help on this

Mark · 1st January 2007, 06:12 PM

That is a beautiful sword, definately Burmese as John said. I think the scabbard is a replacement, as from the photos it appears to be wood, whereas originally is would have been silver over a wood core. I guess it could just be very tarnished ... its a bit hard to tell from the picture.

The koftgari, by the way, is a defining characteristic of a Burmese dha, as it was not used in other parts of SEA. So if there is koftgari on an old blade, it is almost certainly Burmese, and specificially Burman as opposed to one of the other ethnic groups in Burma. Bell (1907) (see the bibliography on my web site that John linked) states that the koftgari decoration on Burmese swords was invented by a certain family of smiths five generations before his writing. Koftgari is not a Burmese invention, of course, but apparently this family was the first in Burma to apply it to dha. Allowing ~50 years per generation, that goes back to around 1650 C.E. According to Lung Som, a master smith in Aranyik, Thailand, koftgari has never been used on Thai blades.

Dating these swords can be difficult if they do not have a date right on them (you sometimes see dedicatory texts with a date on the blade). However, under British colonial rule there was passed the Arms Act of 1878, which effectively killed the sword-making industry in the country (this according to Bell). What appears to have continued is the production of elaborately decorated presentation swords. These are the ones with the dedicatory texts on the blade and/or scabbard. However, with time the actual quality of the blades of these swords seemed to decline, I guess because the swordmaking art was being lost and they just had to look good and not be at all functional as a blade. So, when you see a really nice Burmese sword with any age to it that does not have a dedication on it, it is pretty safe to assume that it is not much older than the 1870's.

With regard to cleaning, the condition of the blade looks good - no rust that I can see - so you probably don't need a professional restoration. The yellowed residue is very likely just old varnish. I would start with a wipe-down of the blade with paint thinner (turpentine, mineral spirits) or acetone on a soft cloth or paper towel. Wipe gently in case any of the koftgari on the blade is loose (you don't want to snag it and tear it off). Hold the folded cloth or towel between thumb and forefinger and wipe down both sides of the blade simultaneously (not critical, but I think its easier that way). I rub the blade with short strokes along the blade, then wipe with a clean paper towel to remove the loosened varnish as you go along. It usually takes several passes to get all of the varnish off.

The condition of the blade itself looks good - no rust that I can see - so cleaning off the varnish is probably all you that you would need to do.

RhysMichael · 2nd January 2007, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

The koftgari, by the way, is a defining characteristic of a Burmese dha, as it was not used in other parts of SEA. So if there is koftgari on an old blade, it is almost certainly Burmese, and specificially Burman as opposed to one of the other ethnic groups in Burma. Bell (1907) (see the bibliography on my web site that John linked) states that the koftgari decoration on Burmese swords was invented by a certain family of smiths five generations before his writing. Koftgari is not a Burmese invention, of course, but apparently this family was the first in Burma to apply it to dha. Allowing ~50 years per generation, that goes back to around 1650 C.E. According to Lung Som, a master smith in Aranyik, Thailand, koftgari has never been used on Thai blades.

Dating these swords can be difficult if they do not have a date right on them (you sometimes see dedicatory texts with a date on the blade). However, under British colonial rule there was passed the Arms Act of 1878, which effectively killed the sword-making industry in the country (this according to Bell). What appears to have continued is the production of elaborately decorated presentation swords. These are the ones with the dedicatory texts on the blade and/or scabbard. However, with time the actual quality of the blades of these swords seemed to decline, I guess because the swordmaking art was being lost and they just had to look good and not be at all functional as a blade. So, when you see a really nice Burmese sword with any age to it that does not have a dedication on it, it is pretty safe to assume that it is not much older than the 1870's.

More good information to add to my "dha notebook", I remember you saying in Md last year that the koftgari was only seen on burmese swords, the rest is all new to me.
Thanks

Tim Simmons · 1st January 2007, 09:09 PM

Some people value these rather highly. A beautiful sword. I think there is no reason to believe the scabbard is not original, I feel sure the bands on the scabbard are silver also. It looks to me like it just needs cleaning with a rag and some 3 in 1 machine oil. Any stubborn gunge should move with the use of the finest polishing steel wool with the oil. It is wise to be most gentle to the silver on the blade.

worldwide · 1st January 2007, 11:36 PM

Thanks Tim, Mark and Rhys,

You have really made me feel confident about my purchase and I am most grateful to you for this.

I have tomorrow off work and will try and spend the day cleaning the sword, after which I will re-post new pictures. Mark, I'd be very happy if you would include the sword on your index (I will provide you with the information as listed in your submission guide). Please let me know if you would like any particular angles/close-ups of the sword (I have borrowed a better camera for better pictures).

Hope you all had a great new years.

JT

Mark · 2nd January 2007, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Some people value these rather highly. A beautiful sword. I think there is no reason to believe the scabbard is not original, I feel sure the bands on the scabbard are silver also. It looks to me like it just needs cleaning with a rag and some 3 in 1 machine oil. Any stubborn gunge should move with the use of the finest polishing steel wool with the oil. It is wise to be most gentle to the silver on the blade.

My reason for believing that the scabbard is not original is based on the assumption that it is not completely covered with silver (just going by the photos here). If its all silver, it indeed is probably original. The scabbards are often the first thing to go on these, though, and it is pretty common to find simpler replacements of plain wood bound with rattan or metal bands.

Do you have some close-ups of the scabbard? Even if it is wood, if the bands are of silver and repeat a decorative motif from, say, the rim of the ferrule, you could have an original. I've just never seen one of these types with a bare wood scabbard.

John, I can send you a copy of the Bell article and the 1878 Act, if you are interested. Dan posted the information from Lung Som in this thread: http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002324.html
BTW, there is a photo in there of a sword that vaguely resembles the one you 'mailed me about. Hard to tell if there is a match.

RhysMichael · 3rd January 2007, 01:26 AM

That would be great Mark I will send you my address
Thanks

31st December 2006, 12:54 PM	#1
worldwide Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3	Help identifying a Brumese Sword c.1860 Hi all, I'n new to swords and also new to this forum. I recently purchased a sword which I think is Burmese (the seller told me that it is dated around 1860). I have uploaded pictures to the following link (the sword has some grease on it which I need to clean): http://www.hebeixingyi.co.uk/sword.htm Anyone ever come across anything like this before? Or have I been cheated?! Thanks!

31st December 2006, 07:43 PM	#2
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	First of all welcome to the forum. You will find a group of folks who like dha/darb here. A word of warning these swords are addictive. This is definitely a dha ( or more precisely a dha-lwe ). Most of the time when I see weapons from that area with that thick black grease on it I am skeptical about them. That is often put on to make them look older in the pictures. That being said I personally do not think that is the case with this sword. The koftgari on the blade looks to be of good quality as does the metalwork and and niello with the handle. The silver looks to be of good quality. The style is consistant with other swords from Burma and a late 19th early 20th century date does not seem out of line with what I can tell from the pictures. Mark, Ian, Andrew, Puff and a few others here I am sure can tell you a great deal more. Not knowing what you paid ( and we do not do appraisals here ) I cannot say if you got a good deal but again from the pictures and not handling the sword I think it meets the description and is not a tourist piece A picture of a similar one from the Macau exhibit http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...221-mib06a.jpg Here is the only niello handled dha I have Some places to look for more info http://dharesearch.bowditch.us/ http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm My few dha can be seen here http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Dha.html ( but updates are needed a couple of the items on that page I no longer have and I have a couple that are not on it. ) If you ever decide to part with it feel free to look me up Last edited by RhysMichael; 31st December 2006 at 08:35 PM.

1st January 2007, 09:09 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Some people value these rather highly. A beautiful sword. I think there is no reason to believe the scabbard is not original, I feel sure the bands on the scabbard are silver also. It looks to me like it just needs cleaning with a rag and some 3 in 1 machine oil. Any stubborn gunge should move with the use of the finest polishing steel wool with the oil. It is wise to be most gentle to the silver on the blade. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 1st January 2007 at 10:15 PM.

31st December 2006, 08:22 PM	#3
worldwide Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3	Hi Rhys Many thanks for the welcome and the prompt response! The info you have provided is amazingly detailed! I bought the sword yesterday for £450.00 from a dealer in London's Portobello Road market. My aim was to buy a katana (a few of which were going for £700) but when I saw the dha I was just fascinated by the design on the blade. The seller seemed honest and descent and did tell me that his knowledge of swords was limited and he could only give me the description given to him by another. I am trying to find someone in London who can clean the sword and would very much appreciate anyone who may have any advice or recommendations. I will then try and post some better pictures! Again, thanks for getting back to me with so much detail. Hope you have a happy new year! JT

1st January 2007, 03:15 AM	#4
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I'm afraid I do not know anyone in England though I am sure there are people there to do it. If you want to ship it to the US I have used Philip Tom and he does excellent work. Another person who does such work is Jose Albovias. I have not used him but I have seen some work he did for other forum members and it also is great. Both of them are forum members and they may know someone out your way. Sorry I am not more help on this

1st January 2007, 06:12 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	That is a beautiful sword, definately Burmese as John said. I think the scabbard is a replacement, as from the photos it appears to be wood, whereas originally is would have been silver over a wood core. I guess it could just be very tarnished ... its a bit hard to tell from the picture. The koftgari, by the way, is a defining characteristic of a Burmese dha, as it was not used in other parts of SEA. So if there is koftgari on an old blade, it is almost certainly Burmese, and specificially Burman as opposed to one of the other ethnic groups in Burma. Bell (1907) (see the bibliography on my web site that John linked) states that the koftgari decoration on Burmese swords was invented by a certain family of smiths five generations before his writing. Koftgari is not a Burmese invention, of course, but apparently this family was the first in Burma to apply it to dha. Allowing ~50 years per generation, that goes back to around 1650 C.E. According to Lung Som, a master smith in Aranyik, Thailand, koftgari has never been used on Thai blades. Dating these swords can be difficult if they do not have a date right on them (you sometimes see dedicatory texts with a date on the blade). However, under British colonial rule there was passed the Arms Act of 1878, which effectively killed the sword-making industry in the country (this according to Bell). What appears to have continued is the production of elaborately decorated presentation swords. These are the ones with the dedicatory texts on the blade and/or scabbard. However, with time the actual quality of the blades of these swords seemed to decline, I guess because the swordmaking art was being lost and they just had to look good and not be at all functional as a blade. So, when you see a really nice Burmese sword with any age to it that does not have a dedication on it, it is pretty safe to assume that it is not much older than the 1870's. With regard to cleaning, the condition of the blade looks good - no rust that I can see - so you probably don't need a professional restoration. The yellowed residue is very likely just old varnish. I would start with a wipe-down of the blade with paint thinner (turpentine, mineral spirits) or acetone on a soft cloth or paper towel. Wipe gently in case any of the koftgari on the blade is loose (you don't want to snag it and tear it off). Hold the folded cloth or towel between thumb and forefinger and wipe down both sides of the blade simultaneously (not critical, but I think its easier that way). I rub the blade with short strokes along the blade, then wipe with a clean paper towel to remove the loosened varnish as you go along. It usually takes several passes to get all of the varnish off. The condition of the blade itself looks good - no rust that I can see - so cleaning off the varnish is probably all you that you would need to do.

1st January 2007, 11:36 PM	#8
worldwide Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 3	Thanks Tim, Mark and Rhys, You have really made me feel confident about my purchase and I am most grateful to you for this. I have tomorrow off work and will try and spend the day cleaning the sword, after which I will re-post new pictures. Mark, I'd be very happy if you would include the sword on your index (I will provide you with the information as listed in your submission guide). Please let me know if you would like any particular angles/close-ups of the sword (I have borrowed a better camera for better pictures). Hope you all had a great new years. JT

3rd January 2007, 01:26 AM	#10
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	That would be great Mark I will send you my address Thanks