Help with Keris ID?

littledirtnap · 30th May 2005, 06:06 AM

I'm very glad to have found this forum. My name is Lee and I live in Texas.
Not long agp I was given this keris as a gift. Unfortunately the sheath was lost some time before I got the knife.
The previous caretaker had been under the impression that it was forged with meteorite iron, which I had thought fanciful until my fiancee found the info on these.Wow, it is possible.
I always try to find out as much as I can on my own, but need more help from experts, whoever is willing.
So far, I have ascertained that it is likely pre-19th Century due to the separate ganja and tang (?).
The balde is 14" long, and the handle is somekind of burl wood
This knife spent a long time in Iceland and was passed down through some generations there. An erroneous notion that it had been forged there was developed along the way, but I'm sure this is native Malaysian.
My questions that remain are:

What kind of Pamor is this, and the esoteric meaning?
Can the presence of metorite iron be determined from the appearance?
Any rough guesses on the date of forging?

On the pamor detail image, I enhanced the contrast to make it more visible.

Any help at all would be appreciated.While Paul page is amazingly informative, I could not determine the pamor from the descriptions.
Thanks!

Alam Shah · 30th May 2005, 01:54 PM

The blade looks more Javanese than Malaysian due to its long slim profile.
The handle is unusual for a keris. The pamor is quite nice but is not clearly visible. First impression, looks like pamor wos wutah variant. The kembang kacang, (on the left side of the blade) is broken.

A full picture of the blade would be nice, so as to determine the dapur.

Justin · 30th May 2005, 03:44 PM

littledirtnap :This does look like a very old and authentic knife ,but the hilt and blade dont match at all, the hilt looks like a gunong grip from the Philippines.

As to the meteorite question, this is one of those things that got mentioned one time in a book and now everybody thinks all keris are made from meteors.Aside from some testing of the content of the steel I dont think there is any way to tell.I seriously doubt that there are many keris that were actually made from meterites,and by many I mean very ,very ,very few.

Spunjer · 30th May 2005, 03:55 PM

the handle is most likely moro. it's posssible it's made out of banati wood. to be specific a gunong knife handle. there are some recent threads pertaining to gunongs. looks nice, tho...

littledirtnap · 30th May 2005, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin

littledirtnap :This does look like a very old and authentic knife ,but the hilt and blade dont match at all, the hilt looks like a gunong grip from the Philippines.

I seriously doubt that there are many keris that were actually made from meterites,and by many I mean very ,very ,very few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

the handle is most likely moro. it's posssible it's made out of banati wood. to be specific a gunong knife handle. there are some recent threads pertaining to gunongs. looks nice, tho...

Thanks for the help guys!
As much as I'd like to believe the folklore that has been passed along with it, that it was an athame forged in Iceland from meteorite iron, I'd rather know the truth as much as possible. If anything, I'm very excited that this knife traveled that much farther to reach me, and I am taking very good care of it. I am tossing the idea around of making a replica-type of sheath for it. If I do so, I'll research for some time before beginning.
Yes, this handle is beautiful, and seems to me a bit younger than the blade.

Rick · 30th May 2005, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by littledirtnap

Thanks for the help guys!
As much as I'd like to believe the folklore that has been passed along with it, that it was an athame forged in Iceland from meteorite iron, I'd rather know the truth as much as possible. If anything, I'm very excited that this knife traveled that much farther to reach me, and I am taking very good care of it. I am tossing the idea around of making a replica-type of sheath for it. If I do so, I'll research for some time before beginning.
Yes, this handle is beautiful, and seems to me a bit younger than the blade.

Whoo , someone's got their geography mixed in the telling of the tale .

Pick up a copy of THE KRIS by Edward Frey from amazon.com
A very good place to start .

Use this site's search feature for keris ; that is mostly how we refer to them here .
You'll find a LOT of info .

littledirtnap · 30th May 2005, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

The blade looks more Javanese than Malaysian due to its long slim profile.
The handle is unusual for a keris. The pamor is quite nice but is not clearly visible. First impression, looks like pamor wos wutah variant. The kembang kacang, (on the left side of the blade) is broken.

A full picture of the blade would be nice, so as to determine the dapur.

I'll try to get better images on...srry no digital cam yet. I appreciate the input from all of you greatly!
I really want to know what this pamor means so I'll get better images of it on. The blade appears to have nine waves from hilt to tip..

tom hyle · 31st May 2005, 03:49 PM

Ferule looks pretty normal to me?
Only the lightest of etches, probably a wipe with vinegar or half a fruit (wash, dry well, and oil afterwards), would remove that light rust; the surface is basically clean and clearly etched already. To bring up the pamor significantly better would involve staining, so some layers are black and others silvery. This is a process involving arsenic

Some forum members have some knowledge of the matter though, and can maybe advise you further.

nechesh · 31st May 2005, 11:12 PM

Now that you mention it Tom, that could indeed be a leather spacer. I was unfamilar with the European tradition. Thanks for the info.

littledirtnap · 1st June 2005, 12:10 AM

I really appreciate all the input!! This helps me a great deal, as this is my first Keris, and I'd like to treat it with proper care.

The spacer is unmistakable as a small circle of leather, soaked in pitch(?).Of this I am sure. It is clearly layered from a first hand view, and has the fibrous characteristic where worn, and worn to lighter brown in small areas.

I will be leaving the hilt as is, as it is tight and I have no desire to change anything. I will, however, carefully clean it.

I am very glad that my asking here has produced this much discussion, and I'll take any and all I can get, and take all into consideration.

Thanks!!

Alam Shah · 1st June 2005, 05:33 AM

Your blade pamor pattern is beautiful. Have a look here for some ideas on how it is traditionally cleaned.

tom hyle · 1st June 2005, 10:36 AM

There are two places where you can see such leather washers on modern traditional European work. First is on fighting swords, where there is sometimes a leather or felt washer/spacer similar in size and shape to Japanese seppa between guard and blade. The other is on tanged woodworking chisels. On the swords it is usually cited as being for tight/quiet sheath-fit, though I don't know that this is its true descent; on the chisels it is held to absorb shock thru the forged bolster, padding the wood and metal from each other. A fairly integral part of this method is that the hole is longer than the tang, so all the stress goes to the end of the handle, rather than the end of the hole (there is usually a significant wedgeness to the tang, but let us leave that for now). These chisels have a square or octagonal tang otherwise rather similar to a k(e)ris tang, and a forged bolster, so this might have made sense to an European person as a way to hilt such a blade......

nechesh · 7th June 2005, 11:03 PM

Hi Kiai. Rick's right, we are all students here. If you find that someone disagrees with you now and then it is not because they consider themselves an expert...or even smarter than you. It is just that they disagree. Very little, especially in the keris world, is ever written in stone.

As for your Sumatran attribution, i think you might be on to something there, but i still can see this as a Bugis keris. I could be wrong. Afterall, i'm no expert.

I look forward to your knowledgable comments on this and other threads. Would you care to venture a guess at the tangguh of this blade?

littledirtnap · 8th June 2005, 01:56 AM

Yes, more please! I'm excited to hear any thoughts anyone has. Any guesses on age?

30th May 2005, 06:06 AM	#1
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	Help with Keris ID? I'm very glad to have found this forum. My name is Lee and I live in Texas. Not long agp I was given this keris as a gift. Unfortunately the sheath was lost some time before I got the knife. The previous caretaker had been under the impression that it was forged with meteorite iron, which I had thought fanciful until my fiancee found the info on these.Wow, it is possible. I always try to find out as much as I can on my own, but need more help from experts, whoever is willing. So far, I have ascertained that it is likely pre-19th Century due to the separate ganja and tang (?). The balde is 14" long, and the handle is somekind of burl wood This knife spent a long time in Iceland and was passed down through some generations there. An erroneous notion that it had been forged there was developed along the way, but I'm sure this is native Malaysian. My questions that remain are: What kind of Pamor is this, and the esoteric meaning? Can the presence of metorite iron be determined from the appearance? Any rough guesses on the date of forging? On the pamor detail image, I enhanced the contrast to make it more visible. Any help at all would be appreciated.While Paul page is amazingly informative, I could not determine the pamor from the descriptions. Thanks! Attached Images Last edited by littledirtnap; 30th May 2005 at 06:23 AM. Reason: trying to get other pics to show

30th May 2005, 01:54 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	The blade looks more Javanese than Malaysian due to its long slim profile. The handle is unusual for a keris. The pamor is quite nice but is not clearly visible. First impression, looks like pamor wos wutah variant. The kembang kacang, (on the left side of the blade) is broken. A full picture of the blade would be nice, so as to determine the dapur. Last edited by Alam Shah; 30th May 2005 at 01:59 PM. Reason: add-on

1st June 2005, 05:33 AM	#11
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Your blade pamor pattern is beautiful. Have a look here for some ideas on how it is traditionally cleaned. Last edited by Alam Shah; 1st June 2005 at 05:46 AM.

30th May 2005, 03:44 PM	#3
Justin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 175	littledirtnap :This does look like a very old and authentic knife ,but the hilt and blade dont match at all, the hilt looks like a gunong grip from the Philippines. As to the meteorite question, this is one of those things that got mentioned one time in a book and now everybody thinks all keris are made from meteors.Aside from some testing of the content of the steel I dont think there is any way to tell.I seriously doubt that there are many keris that were actually made from meterites,and by many I mean very ,very ,very few.

30th May 2005, 03:55 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	the handle is most likely moro. it's posssible it's made out of banati wood. to be specific a gunong knife handle. there are some recent threads pertaining to gunongs. looks nice, tho...

31st May 2005, 03:49 PM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Ferule looks pretty normal to me? Only the lightest of etches, probably a wipe with vinegar or half a fruit (wash, dry well, and oil afterwards), would remove that light rust; the surface is basically clean and clearly etched already. To bring up the pamor significantly better would involve staining, so some layers are black and others silvery. This is a process involving arsenic Some forum members have some knowledge of the matter though, and can maybe advise you further.

31st May 2005, 11:12 PM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Now that you mention it Tom, that could indeed be a leather spacer. I was unfamilar with the European tradition. Thanks for the info.

1st June 2005, 12:10 AM	#10
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	I really appreciate all the input!! This helps me a great deal, as this is my first Keris, and I'd like to treat it with proper care. The spacer is unmistakable as a small circle of leather, soaked in pitch(?).Of this I am sure. It is clearly layered from a first hand view, and has the fibrous characteristic where worn, and worn to lighter brown in small areas. I will be leaving the hilt as is, as it is tight and I have no desire to change anything. I will, however, carefully clean it. I am very glad that my asking here has produced this much discussion, and I'll take any and all I can get, and take all into consideration. Thanks!!

1st June 2005, 10:36 AM	#12
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There are two places where you can see such leather washers on modern traditional European work. First is on fighting swords, where there is sometimes a leather or felt washer/spacer similar in size and shape to Japanese seppa between guard and blade. The other is on tanged woodworking chisels. On the swords it is usually cited as being for tight/quiet sheath-fit, though I don't know that this is its true descent; on the chisels it is held to absorb shock thru the forged bolster, padding the wood and metal from each other. A fairly integral part of this method is that the hole is longer than the tang, so all the stress goes to the end of the handle, rather than the end of the hole (there is usually a significant wedgeness to the tang, but let us leave that for now). These chisels have a square or octagonal tang otherwise rather similar to a k(e)ris tang, and a forged bolster, so this might have made sense to an European person as a way to hilt such a blade......

7th June 2005, 11:03 PM	#13
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Kiai. Rick's right, we are all students here. If you find that someone disagrees with you now and then it is not because they consider themselves an expert...or even smarter than you. It is just that they disagree. Very little, especially in the keris world, is ever written in stone. As for your Sumatran attribution, i think you might be on to something there, but i still can see this as a Bugis keris. I could be wrong. Afterall, i'm no expert. I look forward to your knowledgable comments on this and other threads. Would you care to venture a guess at the tangguh of this blade?

8th June 2005, 01:56 AM	#14
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	Yes, more please! I'm excited to hear any thoughts anyone has. Any guesses on age?