Old African knives

Ian · 16th August 2017, 10:23 PM

Africa is definitely not my bailiwick, but about 15-20 years ago I came across a number of old looking, large African knives with dark patinas that seemed very reasonably priced. In the process of getting my various boxes and closets of swords sorted out this summer, I thought I would put up some pics of five of these African knives for further identification and discussion.

I apologize for not having cleaned them, and that raises the question of whether they should be cleaned, with the iron blades brought back to bright, or left as they are with the patina of age.

After looking at a number of reference texts and our online resources, here are my thoughts about where they may be from:

A. Kuba (hilt wrapped with leather strip) OAL = 24 inches
B. Kuba (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 22.5 inches
C. Tetala (hilt wrapped with rattan strip) OAL = 19 inches
D. Kusu (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18 inches
E. Tetala (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18.75 inches

A, B, C and E show signs of wear and use. These could be 19th C. The remaining one (D) looks more recent and unused.

I would appreciate hearing from our African experts as to where these knives originate.

Ian.

Bob A · 17th August 2017, 02:40 AM

I have a sword closely resembling your D photo. (FWIW, your E is not appearing in the photo array).

Mine differs from the pictured example by having a very short hilt, with no sign of ever having the heavy, blocky pommel as seen on yours. Mine was described as "Azande" on Artzi's site, and you can see it if you care to search. The blade shape and decorations are quite similar to the photos of the Tetela swords I've seen.

I don't know much about the area or the blades, but I was enthralled by the shape of the blade. By the way, my blade is extremely thin and lightweight; it could be used as a weapon, but I'd prefer something heavier for social work.

There was a light dusting of red rust on mine, which I attacked with 0000 steel wool soaked in Eezox, applying and wiping clean until he active rust was eliminated. A coat of Renaissance wax was applied to prevent further oxidation.

Regarding cleaning, my inclination is to stop active rust, but leave blades as close to the condition in which they were found. My limited understanding is that the decision to clean, and the extent thereof, varies from place to place. While aggressive cleaning might highlight some design factors, and can improve the aesthetics of a weapon, that view is limited by the preferences of the person doing the cleaning, and might well be contrary to the original maker's concept. Less is more, in my opinion, at least until such time as I might have a deeper understanding of the item, and how it fits into its milieu.

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2017, 03:50 AM

Hi Ian,
Far from being one of the African experts around here, so not adding more in that regard, what I do want to note is the outstanding way you present these weapons for discussion.

I wish this format was the standard for presentation of examples in all queries in threads, as here they are in a group and numbered with great photos, along with tentative classification and notes numbered accordingly.

This makes comments toward any one of the number of items easily specified and avoids misunderstandings or misplaced observations.
You have a very professional manner indeed, and adding your own preliminary notes and research sets the pace well.

Bob, great response and could not agree more! Maximum restraint on cleaning , and checking any active corrosion is of course prudent, but patination is in a sense (most cases) time inherent in the weapon, sort of history itself.

Ian · 17th August 2017, 05:24 AM

Bob: Thanks for the thoughts. I looked up your Asande knife on the Oriental-Arms site and it does have some similarities to my D example. There is no rust on these, but the lighting seems to have added a reddish hue to the blades here and there.

Jim: Thank you for the kind words. Good to see you back.

Ian.

Miguel · 17th August 2017, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Africa is definitely not my bailiwick, but about 15-20 years ago I came across a number of old looking, large African knives with dark patinas that seemed very reasonably priced. In the process of getting my various boxes and closets of swords sorted out this summer, I thought I would put up some pics of five of these African knives for further identification and discussion.

I apologize for not having cleaned them, and that raises the question of whether they should be cleaned, with the iron blades brought back to bright, or left as they are with the patina of age.

After looking at a number of reference texts and our online resources, here are my thoughts about where they may be from:

A. Kuba (hilt wrapped with leather strip) OAL = 24 inches
B. Kuba (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 22.5 inches
C. Tetala (hilt wrapped with rattan strip) OAL = 19 inches
D. Kusu (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18 inches
E. Tetala (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18.75 inches

A, B, C and E show signs of wear and use. These could be 19th C. The remaining one (D) looks more recent and unused.

I would appreciate hearing from our African experts as to where these knives originate.

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Nice collection, I am no African expert but swords A and B look like Ngombe / Poto (Zairean) swords to me.
Miguel

Sajen · 18th August 2017, 03:24 PM

Hello Ian,

some interesting Central African knives/swords. I am not an expert by African blades but I have Zirngibl/Kubetz "panga na visu", a very good reference book. Another very good reference you can find here: http://www.memoire-africaine.com/armes2.html

Like Miguel I think that A & B are Ngombe or Poto knives from Congo (not Zaire), C will be also a Congo knife, possible Mbole, So, Topoke, Lokele, Mba or Genya tribe. D is clearly a Saka knife, also Congo. E is most possible a Konda/Kundu/Mongo knife, Congo as well. Compare with the given link, you will find similar examples.

Personally I would clean the blades from this knives, see also inside the link, they look much better with clean blades.

Best regards,
Detlef

Ian · 18th August 2017, 09:14 PM

Hello Detlef:

Thank you for the link to that very informative web site. It seems that the more information that I look at, the more confused these attributions become. For example, example D that I posted, and you feel confidently is Saka, appears in Afrikanische Waffen (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl (p. 124) Fig. 221 where it is labeled as Kusu (see attached image from that reference).

Ian.

Sajen · 18th August 2017, 09:41 PM

Hi Ian,

like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure.
Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka.

Best regards,
Detlef

Pieje · 22nd August 2017, 10:45 AM

I agree with Sajen.

A & B = Ngombe, Poto
C = Lokele, So, Topoke
D = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Saka) - nothing to do with the Azande.
E = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Konda).

Also, there are many errors in the book "Afrikanische Waffen" (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl. His last book ("Panga na Visu", which I would recommend to all interested in African weapons, and not expensive) is better, but contains some fake weapons..

C might be the oldest one (end 19th or around 1900), a small iron pommel is of older age than the larger pommels. The others I would say early 20th century).

I would definitely clean the blades, as at the time, the owners would do the same. They were proud of their weapons and would keep them bright and clean all the time.

gp · 22nd September 2020, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hi Ian,

like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure.
Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka.

Best regards,
Detlef

next to the map I already downloaded, please find here a second one which might assist all of you further when it comes to ethnic / tribal determination

16th August 2017, 10:23 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Old African knives Africa is definitely not my bailiwick, but about 15-20 years ago I came across a number of old looking, large African knives with dark patinas that seemed very reasonably priced. In the process of getting my various boxes and closets of swords sorted out this summer, I thought I would put up some pics of five of these African knives for further identification and discussion. I apologize for not having cleaned them, and that raises the question of whether they should be cleaned, with the iron blades brought back to bright, or left as they are with the patina of age. After looking at a number of reference texts and our online resources, here are my thoughts about where they may be from: A. Kuba (hilt wrapped with leather strip) OAL = 24 inches B. Kuba (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 22.5 inches C. Tetala (hilt wrapped with rattan strip) OAL = 19 inches D. Kusu (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18 inches E. Tetala (copper wire-wrapped hilt) OAL = 18.75 inches A, B, C and E show signs of wear and use. These could be 19th C. The remaining one (D) looks more recent and unused. I would appreciate hearing from our African experts as to where these knives originate. Ian. Attached Images

18th August 2017, 09:14 PM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hello Detlef: Thank you for the link to that very informative web site. It seems that the more information that I look at, the more confused these attributions become. For example, example D that I posted, and you feel confidently is Saka, appears in Afrikanische Waffen (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl (p. 124) Fig. 221 where it is labeled as Kusu (see attached image from that reference). Ian. Attached Images

18th August 2017, 09:41 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hi Ian, like said, I am far away to be an expert by Congo blades, I find them very interesting and I've had and sold some very, very nice pieces and all my "knowledge" coming from the forum, panga na visu from Zirngibl and from the collecting in the link I posted. So far I know are the Saka and Kusu are neighbouring tribes but I am unsure. Attached is a very similar knife like yours taken from the provided link and described as Saka. Best regards, Detlef Attached Images

17th August 2017, 02:40 AM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	I have a sword closely resembling your D photo. (FWIW, your E is not appearing in the photo array). Mine differs from the pictured example by having a very short hilt, with no sign of ever having the heavy, blocky pommel as seen on yours. Mine was described as "Azande" on Artzi's site, and you can see it if you care to search. The blade shape and decorations are quite similar to the photos of the Tetela swords I've seen. I don't know much about the area or the blades, but I was enthralled by the shape of the blade. By the way, my blade is extremely thin and lightweight; it could be used as a weapon, but I'd prefer something heavier for social work. There was a light dusting of red rust on mine, which I attacked with 0000 steel wool soaked in Eezox, applying and wiping clean until he active rust was eliminated. A coat of Renaissance wax was applied to prevent further oxidation. Regarding cleaning, my inclination is to stop active rust, but leave blades as close to the condition in which they were found. My limited understanding is that the decision to clean, and the extent thereof, varies from place to place. While aggressive cleaning might highlight some design factors, and can improve the aesthetics of a weapon, that view is limited by the preferences of the person doing the cleaning, and might well be contrary to the original maker's concept. Less is more, in my opinion, at least until such time as I might have a deeper understanding of the item, and how it fits into its milieu.

17th August 2017, 03:50 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Hi Ian, Far from being one of the African experts around here, so not adding more in that regard, what I do want to note is the outstanding way you present these weapons for discussion. I wish this format was the standard for presentation of examples in all queries in threads, as here they are in a group and numbered with great photos, along with tentative classification and notes numbered accordingly. This makes comments toward any one of the number of items easily specified and avoids misunderstandings or misplaced observations. You have a very professional manner indeed, and adding your own preliminary notes and research sets the pace well. Bob, great response and could not agree more! Maximum restraint on cleaning , and checking any active corrosion is of course prudent, but patination is in a sense (most cases) time inherent in the weapon, sort of history itself.

17th August 2017, 05:24 AM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Bob: Thanks for the thoughts. I looked up your Asande knife on the Oriental-Arms site and it does have some similarities to my D example. There is no rust on these, but the lighting seems to have added a reddish hue to the blades here and there. Jim: Thank you for the kind words. Good to see you back. Ian.

18th August 2017, 03:24 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Ian, some interesting Central African knives/swords. I am not an expert by African blades but I have Zirngibl/Kubetz "panga na visu", a very good reference book. Another very good reference you can find here: http://www.memoire-africaine.com/armes2.html Like Miguel I think that A & B are Ngombe or Poto knives from Congo (not Zaire), C will be also a Congo knife, possible Mbole, So, Topoke, Lokele, Mba or Genya tribe. D is clearly a Saka knife, also Congo. E is most possible a Konda/Kundu/Mongo knife, Congo as well. Compare with the given link, you will find similar examples. Personally I would clean the blades from this knives, see also inside the link, they look much better with clean blades. Best regards, Detlef

22nd August 2017, 10:45 AM	#9
Pieje Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 132	I agree with Sajen. A & B = Ngombe, Poto C = Lokele, So, Topoke D = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Saka) - nothing to do with the Azande. E = Mongo group (mostly referred to the Konda). Also, there are many errors in the book "Afrikanische Waffen" (African Weapons) by Fischer & Zirngibl. His last book ("Panga na Visu", which I would recommend to all interested in African weapons, and not expensive) is better, but contains some fake weapons.. C might be the oldest one (end 19th or around 1900), a small iron pommel is of older age than the larger pommels. The others I would say early 20th century). I would definitely clean the blades, as at the time, the owners would do the same. They were proud of their weapons and would keep them bright and clean all the time.