Origin of the Modern Ginunting?

ashkenaz · 27th January 2018, 02:59 PM

I've been looking up the connection between the Modern/Military/Recon/Marine Ginunting to the more heavy and "traditional" Binangon/Ginunting Bolo as well as the story to how the Modern Ginunting came about and transitioning from the old Ilonggo one and who exactly made the modernized modifications.

But I can't seem to find any proper answers unfortunately.

Care I ask another amateur question? Sorry about this again.

Ian · 27th January 2018, 08:38 PM

Hello Ashkenaz:

One can find the ginunting style blade throughout the Philippines (and indeed Indonesia and parts of mainland SE Asia). I think you are starting in the wrong place if you believe that the Ilonggo version is the original sword/knife of this shape, and this shape diffused out from Panay. The reverse is likely to be true.

Many groups over a wide area of SE Asia favor a forward-weighted sword (i.e., with the balance and percussion points towards the tip)--certainly further forward than many European swords--and extra weight towards the end of the blade is a common feature. In the case of the ginunting, it has a wide blade extending almost to the tip, a fairly straight cutting edge and a spine that curves towards the point. The Moro groups would call this a bangkung; the Tagalog and Ilokano would call it a ginunting; and you know what it is called in the Visayas. If you look in Albert Van Zonneveld's book on Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago..., you will find other examples distributed more widely.

In response to your question about the binangon transitioning to a ginunting elsewhere, I don't believe you will find evidence to support that idea. Rather, I think these are parallel developments based on swords and knives from elsewhere, probably a long time ago.

Ian.

ashkenaz · 28th January 2018, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Hello Ashkenaz:

One can find the ginunting style blade throughout the Philippines (and indeed Indonesia and parts of mainland SE Asia). I think you are starting in the wrong place if you believe that the Ilonggo version is the original sword/knife of this shape, and this shape diffused out from Panay. The reverse is likely to be true.

Many groups over a wide area of SE Asia favor a forward-weighted sword (i.e., with the balance and percussion points towards the tip)--certainly further forward than many European swords--and extra weight towards the end of the blade is a common feature. In the case of the ginunting, it has a wide blade extending almost to the tip, a fairly straight cutting edge and a spine that curves towards the point. The Moro groups would call this a bangkung; the Tagalog and Ilokano would call it a ginunting; and you know what it is called in the Visayas. If you look in Albert Van Zonneveld's book on Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago..., you will find other examples distributed more widely.

In response to your question about the binangon transitioning to a ginunting elsewhere, I don't believe you will find evidence to support that idea. Rather, I think these are parallel developments based on swords and knives from elsewhere, probably a long time ago.

Ian.

Oh, you misunderstand sorry.

I'm just wondering where the so called Modern Ginunting that the Filipino Marines now use came from, you know, the Ginunting types like the Prado Ginuntings or the Ginuntings that TFW sells.

I understand that those Ginuntings are not really traditional, but I'm wondering how the modern Filipino Marine Ginunting transitioned from the old heavier Ginunting. Who made these modifications, why and when as well.

Ian · 1st February 2018, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashkenaz

Oh, you misunderstand sorry.

I'm just wondering where the so called Modern Ginunting that the Filipino Marines now use came from, you know, the Ginunting types like the Prado Ginuntings or the Ginuntings that TFW sells.

I understand that those Ginuntings are not really traditional, but I'm wondering how the modern Filipino Marine Ginunting transitioned from the old heavier Ginunting. Who made these modifications, why and when as well.

Hi Ashekenaz,

Yes, I did misunderstand your question. Sorry. I don't have any information about how the modern military ginunting came about. I do know that various versions of the ginunting have been present throughout the Philippines for a long time.

Ian.

kronckew · 4th February 2018, 12:06 AM

An earlier 'villager' form of ginunting from Jun Silva, from the Cebu area, latter half 20thc. : his shop below:

Right hand chisel edge & the top 'false' edge isn't false, it's also razor sharp. (same sword in both pics)

kai · 28th January 2018, 08:52 PM

Hello ashkenaz,

Quote:

I've been looking up the connection between the Modern/Military/Recon/Marine Ginunting to the more heavy and "traditional" Binangon/Ginunting Bolo as well as the story to how the Modern Ginunting came about and transitioning from the old Ilonggo one and who exactly made the modernized modifications.

So, what have you found out already?

This seems to be a fairly recent development within the Tortal/Gaje lineage. I'm not privy to any intimate details but you can always ask the source, I guess.

Please keep us posted!

From what I've seen there is quite a bit of variability of antique Ilonggo binangon/ginunting (i. e. with klewang type blades) from Panay/Guiramas/Negros: If there is any trend at all, the longer, "pure" fighting blades may be a tad slimmer on average?

I haven't come across any antique examples with original concave edge (nor noticeably protruding tip) though; however, there are genuine klewang with resembling features from other (non-neighbouring) origins.

Regards,
Kai

27th January 2018, 02:59 PM	#1
ashkenaz Member Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 23	Origin of the Modern Ginunting? I've been looking up the connection between the Modern/Military/Recon/Marine Ginunting to the more heavy and "traditional" Binangon/Ginunting Bolo as well as the story to how the Modern Ginunting came about and transitioning from the old Ilonggo one and who exactly made the modernized modifications. But I can't seem to find any proper answers unfortunately. Care I ask another amateur question? Sorry about this again.

4th February 2018, 12:06 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,186	An earlier 'villager' form of ginunting from Jun Silva, from the Cebu area, latter half 20thc. : his shop below: Right hand chisel edge & the top 'false' edge isn't false, it's also razor sharp. (same sword in both pics) Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 4th February 2018 at 12:21 AM.

27th January 2018, 08:38 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,207	Hello Ashkenaz: One can find the ginunting style blade throughout the Philippines (and indeed Indonesia and parts of mainland SE Asia). I think you are starting in the wrong place if you believe that the Ilonggo version is the original sword/knife of this shape, and this shape diffused out from Panay. The reverse is likely to be true. Many groups over a wide area of SE Asia favor a forward-weighted sword (i.e., with the balance and percussion points towards the tip)--certainly further forward than many European swords--and extra weight towards the end of the blade is a common feature. In the case of the ginunting, it has a wide blade extending almost to the tip, a fairly straight cutting edge and a spine that curves towards the point. The Moro groups would call this a bangkung; the Tagalog and Ilokano would call it a ginunting; and you know what it is called in the Visayas. If you look in Albert Van Zonneveld's book on Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago..., you will find other examples distributed more widely. In response to your question about the binangon transitioning to a ginunting elsewhere, I don't believe you will find evidence to support that idea. Rather, I think these are parallel developments based on swords and knives from elsewhere, probably a long time ago. Ian.