Torador breeching.

[Pukka Bundook]

Just a note on a torador breech set-up;

Said gun is in poor shape, and has bits missing at present, looks Rajasthan and late 18th century.
Very slim stock.
Bore about .58"

Have discussed breech arrangements with Rick here, as these barrels appear to nearly always have a chamber for powder, a constricted area, then the bore proper.
As near as I can tell, the breech on this one is made as follows;

Bore of the barrel is straight at .about .58 cal, to within 4" of the breech.
Bore constricted at this point, to maybe 1/2" .
After the constriction, the chamber opens up to about the same calibre as the bore, (.58" as far as I can tell).............but tapers Smaller to the breech, so that for the last inch or so, a 7/16" dowel is a snug fit right down to the breech face.

Although the powder chamber is not as large as the bore for its entire length, it Still holds about 180 grains of powder, which for a .58 calibre would be a really healthy charge!
This powder chamber can best be described as pear -shaped, with the wider part to-wards the muzzle.
Just thought this may be of interest to Rick at any rate!

Best,
Richard.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard.
WOW!! Now that is interesting. And really strange. Hmmmm.....
The breech on yours seems to be the same pear shape as mine - but in the opposite direction ???? I honestly don't know what to make of that. You just have to wonder what some of their thinking was??
The breech on my barrel seems to be designed just like the photo here from the YouTube vidio.
Speaking of which. I was expecting my barrel back from the barrelsmith around the end of March. I was almost next in line. But then he had to have knee surgery and would be limited to about two hours of work a day for about 6 weeks. DARN. So It's now looking like sometime in June.
Please post your matchlock when you have the opportunity. And thanks for telling me about the barrel. Seems like another varient (?).
Rick.

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

My camera has 'turned up missing' at present, but when it comes out of hiding I will attach a few pics.

I think the only important criteria with the chamber, was that a ball had a seat which prevented it over-compressing the powder. This May just be a carry-over from the European design as shown in your picture above, as with serperntine mealed powder, over -compressed powder will not ignite.
With corned powder, (as we all know) there is no such need for a chamber.
Did India in general continue with mealed powder longer?.........or was the old chamber design merely copied without much thought?

I do know from contemporary sources, that the matchlock was known (in general) to be more accurate and outrange the British musket. Did the huge powder capacity of the chamber help? I'd think so, at least in range!

Richard.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard.
Well, we know change came very slowly in this part of the world during the 19th Century. So the meal powder and breech design theory, at least early on makes sense. And if they thought the matchlocks proved accurate for it's day, there was probably no reason to change the design, even at the introduction of corn powder.
Of course, I'm just speculating here. But the fact that they continued to manufacture and use these matchlocks all the way up to the 1880's is a real mystery to me. That's well into the black powder cartridge period.
It seems that their thinking was after ignition, that building up initial pressure in the breech area, combined with the long barrel, offered better velocity and thus accuracy versus "building" velocity as it travels down the barrel. Just a thought.
In any case, the restriction in the bore seems to be designed to keep the ball from compressing against the powder.
By the way, do you think the picture posted here, showing the inside of the bore originated from a European matchlock design ?
If you've seen the YouTube video "Mughal Matchlock", they cut the breech of a Torador breech lengthwise. But the only show it for about 3 seconds. But it does show the design similar to the above photo. Which seems to duplicate my barrel.
Rick.

[Pukka Bundook]

Rick,

I think the matchlock continued in use so long in India because it suited irregular troops well. Easy to find /make ammo for including clay balls at times. no flint to find for the lock, no brass cases needed, and as long as the use was limited to irregular skirmish and not pitched battle, it worked very well.
It seems a good few flintlocks were converted to matchlock for use by Arab mercenaries, as that bis what they were used to and preferred.

The picture you post I shard to figure out what it is of, apart from a matchlock, as it doesn't really look like anything I have seen before. :-)

I believe the chambered breech is a copy of the European idea, but with the difference that in most European chambered barrels, the chamber is smaller than the bore proper, and as we have seen, chambers on Indian arms can vary. The important part of the chamber merely being to prevent the ball or other projectiles from over -compressing the powder.
I have been fine-boring this barrel, and that isn't as easy without a removable breech plug!........the reason being that the bore is a bit rough & pitted, so just smoothing it up a bit to see if it could be once again brought into use.
These are the seller's pictures below;
My camera still hiding.
The stock is So slim that it's just about not there at all!!

Richard.

[rickystl]

Hi Richard.
I agree with all your assessments and comments above. As you mention, the restriction in the bore was meant to keep the ball from compressing against the powder. While the breech designs do seem to vary, they all seem designed to handle heavy charges of black powder. The barrel walls at the breech are very thick.
Thanks for posting pics of your Matchlock. Yes, that would be a tough job with the bore not having a removeable breech plug. But the gun definately looks restorable. There appears to be a missing piece of wood behind the breech area of the stock. From the photos, it doesn't look broke. Just missing. Originally, maybe a different colored piece of wood, maybe with a horn cap ? Or maybe one piece of elaphant ivory somebody removed But I don't notice any holes in the bottom section where nails or pins might have been (?). Anyway, be careful with that forearm. Sounds like it might be delicate.
Rick.

[archer]

Recently read I think in Elgoods book that clay balls were used for birds and the like seems lodical not to waste lead. Pukka bundock also mentioned them here in this thread. The story goes that rocks were shot really how many correctly sized round rocks can you find in a week? So it would seem this is another story that has no merit. Clay balls likely looked like rocks and were no doubt fired at times. Steve

[Pukka Bundook]

Steve,

Clay balls is another thing for us to try !

At least clay is cheap. (Ice at present would be cheaper still, but less common in Mughal India most of the time. )

Your finding that manure -(Cow manure or some such) was used as wadding helps an awful lot with the chamber problem, and for the record, I did try this at the weekend and it Does work Very well!

(Dry manure,...not fresh. ) :-)
I know I stated the above in your recent Interesting barrel thread, but wanted to put it here as well for future searches.

Actually, it is all getting very exciting....how readily available most of the loading components are. :-)
As I get down to measuring other chambers, I will keep you posted on volumes and measurements, as close as possible.

Thanks again,

Richard.

[David R]

Watching these torador threads with a lot of interest. I have one myself, bought years ago, and always wondered what they would be like to shoot.

I read an account of Skinners Horse (Yellowboys) demonstrating their skills, and they shot at bottles hung from a tree branch, while at full gallop.

[Pukka Bundook]

David,

Do you have a link to your matchlock?
If not, I'd love to see it somewhere!

The "enquiring mind" on these is what got me interested in firing one as well!

I would really like to hear if and when you do get yours running. :-)
Yes, I know these are antique artefacts, but so much remains academic unless we can fill out the picture to some degree.

To me, the more we learn about these, and the people /culture, the richer our experience becomes. Have been enjoying looking at miniature paintings of hunting scenes, (Moghul etc. ) So vibrant and full of life and humour!
We should start a thread on these!

Very best,
Richard.

[archer]

Hi Richard,
Waiting your trial runs with clay. My guess is that for birds and other small
game the clay balls might be aimed in front and below the target. Fragmenting into crude shot with a similar effect to barking a squirrel Daniel Boone style.
Know any potters or will Moms oven work? Steve