LOHAR - Solving The Mistery

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st October 2006, 06:02 PM

Long, long time ago I started this fructuos thread, that perpetuated in the new Forum. It was about the LOHAR and what was his true function. Now if you digest this brainstorm we did here one can get close to how limitless human mind is.
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002389.html
Now, it so happend I made a friend three days ago, Mr. Mohammed, he is a Pashtun Afghani that has been trading art, antiques and fine rugs for over three decades. He has a museum size gallery named "Arjang Asian Rugs & Arts" in La Jolla (San Diego area), California now.
And I asked him to tell me what in the world the Lohars are used for. First of all I had to draw and pull pictures of them and as soon as I did he smiled large and I said: I know these things very well, we dont make them anymore in Afghanistan too much, unless its the tourist market in Kaboul. They are not "lohar" or at least we dont name them that way, we call them "kan' shekan" or "koolang". And they are not sickles or weapons, my friend. THEY ARE ICE AND CANDY PICKS ! You know we sell ice in the markets and its brought in huge blocks that need to be broken or scrapped and also sugar candy especially back in the days same thing came in blocks and if you bought lets say half a kilo the merchant need to chop it off the block! And it also made a good decoration in the house or a kid toy. ...I rest my case, my heart is at peace because so far I believe Mr. Mohammed. I smile now thinking you can find this "lohar" in books like Cameron Stone's famous refference "Glossary of Arms and Armour", "Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Moghul" by Tirri and many others... Sometimes how fine the line between domestic implement and weaponry is inside the bibliographical records resides in our enthusiasm!

wolviex · 31st October 2006, 06:32 PM

Thank you very much and welcome back!
It might be! but don't forget that border between weapons and utilitary tools is often very thin. One will use something as flail on his farm while his neighbour will add some brass inlay or few nails making nice or dangerous looking weapon. I didn't follow your thread on 'Lohar' nor I met with such weapons by myself, so I can't tell anything about them, it's just my overall thought about weapons and their origins or later modifications.
Regards!

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st October 2006, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

it's just my overall thought about weapons and their origins or later modifications.
Regards!

Wolviex, my dear brother, thank you. Being from Eastern Europe we both now that very well. Peasant uprisings is what I mean of course! I am just not "crickey" with the idea of putting a sledge hammer, a sickle or a pitchfork in a war panoply or a arms and armour album. But youre right there are also cleavers, axes and staffs which some of them were created with war in mind or at least to partly serve as weapon from the start. As long as they were created with serving as weapon, even partly, in mind, I am cool with it. Hold a Lohar in hand and you know its not

Emanuel · 31st October 2006, 08:55 PM

Hello Radu and all,

Not to throw a wrench into what is kown about the lohar and to confuse matters further, but here is a short clip - from the movie Exils - that shows an Algerian percussion instrument (likely Kabyle) that uses a drum-stick very similar to the lohar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzmbTCQxHMw
it is used in conjunction with a regular drum-stick.
I'm sorry but the view of the instrument in the clip is the only one in the movie...I've tried researching this instrument further, but haven't fount anything yet. I hope this isn't entirely irrelevant.

Best regards,
Emanuel

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st October 2006, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

Hello Radu and all,

Not to throw a wrench into what is kown about the lohar and to confuse matters further, but here is a short clip - from the movie Exils - that shows an Algerian percussion instrument (likely Kabyle) that uses a drum-stick very similar to the lohar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzmbTCQxHMw
it is used in conjunction with a regular drum-stick.
I'm sorry but the view of the instrument in the clip is the only one in the movie...I've tried researching this instrument further, but haven't fount anything yet. I hope this isn't entirely irrelevant.

Best regards,
Emanuel

Hello Emanuel,

No pun intended, but I say you are drawing in a wee bit of confusion here. Here is what you should look for, its a wooden drum stick no relation to the matter IMHO. Common throughout North Africa and not only, made of wood or bone.
http://www.motherlandmusic.com/sticks&beaters.htm
You dont poke a drum with a sharp point metal ice pick.

Emanuel · 31st October 2006, 10:00 PM

Hi Radu,
Fair enough, just the shape of the drumstick really struck me when I saw it and brought the lohar to my mind.
Ah, thanks for the link...and I didn't realize it was wooden...some lohar I held had a very blunt point, almost fully rounded. The edge underneath was practically nonexistent on one example.
All the best,
Emanuel

Montino Bourbon · 31st October 2006, 10:12 PM

Are used by many tribes. Some look like an 'L', and some look like a check mark. The normal African talking drum is played with that sort of stick.

Don't use a 'lohar' for that!

Bill M · 1st November 2006, 02:50 AM

Don't take a lohar to a gun fight. Nor a knife fight. Nor a sword fight -- unless they are serving iced sugar drinks. Only then will you and your lohar be appreciated.

Sugar or ice? Why not? Never could understand how they were used anyhow.

But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy.

The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point.

I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall?

katana · 31st October 2006, 06:41 PM

Interesting post Radu....throughout history agricultural tools have been used as weapons. The link you posted to the previous thread mentions the Japanese Kama, a weapon which started life as an Agricultural implement and utilised as a weapon, when, if historians are correct, the carrying of legitimate weapons by peasants was banned.
I also noticed in that thread a picture and reference to a Lohar looking 'weapon' attributed to a tribal source (Bannochie)...surely they did not rely on them to break up ice blocks or sugar candy.....adopted as a weapon? or originally designed as a weapon ? Perhaps they evolved independently?

Ian · 31st October 2006, 07:08 PM

Radu:

Why do you think people went to the trouble of making folding versions of these ice picks?

Ian.

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st October 2006, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Radu:

Why do you think people went to the trouble of making folding versions of these ice picks?

Ian.

It makes perfect sense when you want to store them and carry them on you. Just like a giant folding knife, why would someone want a knife that folds, even though eventually less powerfull has a big advantage and gets most of the jobs done.

Radu Transylvanicus · 31st October 2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I also noticed in that thread a picture and reference to a Lohar looking 'weapon' attributed to a tribal source (Bannochie)...surely they did not rely on them to break up ice blocks or sugar candy.....adopted as a weapon? or originally designed as a weapon ? Perhaps they evolved independently?

And why would Banoochies not want to use them as picks, what is so different about that than rest of lohars

BBJW · 27th December 2006, 11:46 PM

Hello- My first post. I have several lohars and don't believe the ice/candy pick explanation. The folding ones would not hold up to tough use and were folded for concealment. I was told by an Afghani that the lohar was originally intended to cut the reins of horses, camels, or donkeys. This explanation has always made sense to me.

Tim Simmons · 28th December 2006, 04:49 PM

A tool need not be very heavy to chip pieces of sugar off a big lump for sweet tea at gatherings. Why would you want to cut reins? they might be relatively expensive. Also a risky move if fighting when your adversary may be slashing around with a saber. Just a few thoughts.

BBJW · 29th December 2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

A tool need not be very heavy to chip pieces of sugar off a big lump for sweet tea at gatherings. Why would you want to cut reins? they might be relatively expensive. Also a risky move if fighting when your adversary may be slashing around with a saber. Just a few thoughts.

A man on foot would cut the reins to disable the "power steering" on a mounted warrior and would not be worried about the expense to the rider. Also it would not be so risky a move if there was more than one man on foot. A lohar would be an extremely efficient weapon for grabbing the reins and cutting them without hurting the animal which would have been much more valuable than the reins. The lohars in my collection do not look like your sugar hammer in post # 31. I have used a hunting knife to open a can, but that doesn't make it a can opener.

Tim Simmons · 29th December 2006, 10:57 AM

That sounds very logical. But it sounds as wrong to me as a sugar hammer/pick/tool does to you. A horseman would surely be able to control a horse without reins? what if the horse was moving quite quickly? Anyway what ever they are, they can be very attractive artifacts. With Radu's information and yours, that makes two differing native opinions

katana · 29th December 2006, 12:21 PM

Perhaps if these were used against horsemen, cutting the girth straps would be more effective.......but very difficult. With the girth straps cut the saddle ( and rider) would 'slip off' ...

Unfortunately.....if you were a horse on a battle field.....you would be a prime target. Logistically, it would be greatly beneficial to 'take out' the 'mounted ' enemy to nullify any advantage that it gave your opponent. Horses would be met with 'lethal intent'.

There is the possibility that the Lohar could be used to 'ham string' a horse, rider or foot soldier. Ham stringing....effectively a cut to the back of the leg..which severs the tendons......immobilises the victim. Armour or other forms of protection were not commonly used for the back of the legs and therefore were vulnerable. A 'ham strung' victim.....no longer able to fight would either bleed to death or would receive the lethal blow later.

One other thing that has just struck me......some Lohar have 'fold away' blades.....that suggests to me that they were carried. A utility knife in the home is 'one piece'......the 'folder' type knife is designed to be transported.
Would you need to carry a 'sugar axe' to your local cafe....

31st October 2006, 06:02 PM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	LOHAR - Solving The Mistery Long, long time ago I started this fructuos thread, that perpetuated in the new Forum. It was about the LOHAR and what was his true function. Now if you digest this brainstorm we did here one can get close to how limitless human mind is. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002389.html Now, it so happend I made a friend three days ago, Mr. Mohammed, he is a Pashtun Afghani that has been trading art, antiques and fine rugs for over three decades. He has a museum size gallery named "Arjang Asian Rugs & Arts" in La Jolla (San Diego area), California now. And I asked him to tell me what in the world the Lohars are used for. First of all I had to draw and pull pictures of them and as soon as I did he smiled large and I said: I know these things very well, we dont make them anymore in Afghanistan too much, unless its the tourist market in Kaboul. They are not "lohar" or at least we dont name them that way, we call them "kan' shekan" or "koolang". And they are not sickles or weapons, my friend. THEY ARE ICE AND CANDY PICKS ! You know we sell ice in the markets and its brought in huge blocks that need to be broken or scrapped and also sugar candy especially back in the days same thing came in blocks and if you bought lets say half a kilo the merchant need to chop it off the block! And it also made a good decoration in the house or a kid toy. ...I rest my case, my heart is at peace because so far I believe Mr. Mohammed. I smile now thinking you can find this "lohar" in books like Cameron Stone's famous refference "Glossary of Arms and Armour", "Islamic Weapons, Maghrib to Moghul" by Tirri and many others... Sometimes how fine the line between domestic implement and weaponry is inside the bibliographical records resides in our enthusiasm! Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 31st October 2006 at 08:41 PM.

31st October 2006, 10:12 PM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	curved sticks for drums... Are used by many tribes. Some look like an 'L', and some look like a check mark. The normal African talking drum is played with that sort of stick. Don't use a 'lohar' for that!

1st November 2006, 02:50 AM	#8
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Don't take a lohar to a gun fight. Nor a knife fight. Nor a sword fight -- unless they are serving iced sugar drinks. Only then will you and your lohar be appreciated. Sugar or ice? Why not? Never could understand how they were used anyhow. But really, Radhu, could it be that you or your friend are joking? I have one with silver koftgari. Pretty fancy -- and a bit too sharp for a kids toy. The blade does not look like it would take an awful lot of icepicking. pretty heavy but tapering to a rather thin point. I also wonder why Lohar are flat,almost unfinished, on one side even when heavily decorated on the other side. Maybe you could ask your friend? Seriously, is it because they were made to hang on a wall? Last edited by Bill Marsh; 1st November 2006 at 03:02 AM.

27th December 2006, 11:46 PM	#13
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Lohar in use Hello- My first post. I have several lohars and don't believe the ice/candy pick explanation. The folding ones would not hold up to tough use and were folded for concealment. I was told by an Afghani that the lohar was originally intended to cut the reins of horses, camels, or donkeys. This explanation has always made sense to me.

29th December 2006, 12:21 PM	#17
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Perhaps if these were used against horsemen, cutting the girth straps would be more effective.......but very difficult. With the girth straps cut the saddle ( and rider) would 'slip off' ... Unfortunately.....if you were a horse on a battle field.....you would be a prime target. Logistically, it would be greatly beneficial to 'take out' the 'mounted ' enemy to nullify any advantage that it gave your opponent. Horses would be met with 'lethal intent'. There is the possibility that the Lohar could be used to 'ham string' a horse, rider or foot soldier. Ham stringing....effectively a cut to the back of the leg..which severs the tendons......immobilises the victim. Armour or other forms of protection were not commonly used for the back of the legs and therefore were vulnerable. A 'ham strung' victim.....no longer able to fight would either bleed to death or would receive the lethal blow later. One other thing that has just struck me......some Lohar have 'fold away' blades.....that suggests to me that they were carried. A utility knife in the home is 'one piece'......the 'folder' type knife is designed to be transported. Would you need to carry a 'sugar axe' to your local cafe.... Last edited by katana; 29th December 2006 at 01:28 PM.

31st October 2006, 06:32 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you very much and welcome back! It might be! but don't forget that border between weapons and utilitary tools is often very thin. One will use something as flail on his farm while his neighbour will add some brass inlay or few nails making nice or dangerous looking weapon. I didn't follow your thread on 'Lohar' nor I met with such weapons by myself, so I can't tell anything about them, it's just my overall thought about weapons and their origins or later modifications. Regards!

31st October 2006, 08:55 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello Radu and all, Not to throw a wrench into what is kown about the lohar and to confuse matters further, but here is a short clip - from the movie Exils - that shows an Algerian percussion instrument (likely Kabyle) that uses a drum-stick very similar to the lohar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzmbTCQxHMw it is used in conjunction with a regular drum-stick. I'm sorry but the view of the instrument in the clip is the only one in the movie...I've tried researching this instrument further, but haven't fount anything yet. I hope this isn't entirely irrelevant. Best regards, Emanuel

31st October 2006, 10:00 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Radu, Fair enough, just the shape of the drumstick really struck me when I saw it and brought the lohar to my mind. Ah, thanks for the link...and I didn't realize it was wooden...some lohar I held had a very blunt point, almost fully rounded. The edge underneath was practically nonexistent on one example. All the best, Emanuel

31st October 2006, 06:41 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Interesting post Radu....throughout history agricultural tools have been used as weapons. The link you posted to the previous thread mentions the Japanese Kama, a weapon which started life as an Agricultural implement and utilised as a weapon, when, if historians are correct, the carrying of legitimate weapons by peasants was banned. I also noticed in that thread a picture and reference to a Lohar looking 'weapon' attributed to a tribal source (Bannochie)...surely they did not rely on them to break up ice blocks or sugar candy.....adopted as a weapon? or originally designed as a weapon ? Perhaps they evolved independently?

31st October 2006, 07:08 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,209	Radu: Why do you think people went to the trouble of making folding versions of these ice picks? Ian.

28th December 2006, 04:49 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	A tool need not be very heavy to chip pieces of sugar off a big lump for sweet tea at gatherings. Why would you want to cut reins? they might be relatively expensive. Also a risky move if fighting when your adversary may be slashing around with a saber. Just a few thoughts.

29th December 2006, 10:57 AM	#16
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	That sounds very logical. But it sounds as wrong to me as a sugar hammer/pick/tool does to you. A horseman would surely be able to control a horse without reins? what if the horse was moving quite quickly? Anyway what ever they are, they can be very attractive artifacts. With Radu's information and yours, that makes two differing native opinions