A Flamberge Sword For Comments

efrahjalt · 22nd January 2022, 02:50 AM

Hi All

I have had this flamberge bladed sword for a few years and it's been a bit of a mystery to me. I would like to know more about it if possible. Some of the shapes on this blade remind me of weapons from the Philippines. The slanted guard for example reminds me of the slant seen on keris, and the flamberge blade of course is commonly found in SE Asian weapons. That said I haven't seen anything quite like it so have no idea where to place it in time or culture.

The blade is beautifully carved with very well done and crisp waves. Having done some blade making myself I have an appreciation for how much effort this would take to do nicely. The hilt however leaves something to be desired which makes be wonder if it is a later addition. The metal hilt parts are aluminum which makes it quite recent, but the blade appears to have a little more age to it. Hard to say for sure. Am I onto something?

The blade is 30-1/2 in and the total length is 36-1/2in, so it's not a small blade, and if it's from the Philippines it's quite large compared to typical swords from that part of the world.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this one if any.

Thanks!

Ian · 22nd January 2022, 08:19 AM

Hello efrahjalt:

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for posting this interesting sword!

As you note, this is probably a sword from the southern Philippines, with the blade forged by a Moro panday. The curves appear to be forged rather than created by stock removal. In total, I count 27 luk, which is an unusually high number for the Moro kris that this sword seems to be based on. I think the highest number of luk on a Moro kris that I have seen is 21. Also, a blade length over 30 inches is really uncommon. There were long swords developed during the Japanese Occupation Period (1941-1945). The blade is clearly missing its gangya (perhaps never had one) and might well be a custom made piece for a foreigner.

The hilt is highly atypical, of course, for a Moro blade. Is the hilt mostly horn or wood?

An interesting sword made for someone outside the Moro culture. Probably WWII-era manufacture, or shortly afterwards.

chmorshuutz · 22nd January 2022, 11:47 AM

Reminds me of those kris from Luzon and Visayas, those are much pointier than their Moro counterparts. Then there's also the absence of typical gangya found in Moro kalis, instead it uses the guard similar to Luzon/Visayan kris.

kai · 22nd January 2022, 12:46 PM

I agree: This blade doesn't look like Moro craftsmanship - much more likely one of the northern look-alikes. Only the slanted base is unusual...

Regards,
Kai

efrahjalt · 22nd January 2022, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chmorshuutz

Reminds me of those kris from Luzon and Visayas, those are much pointier than their Moro counterparts. Then there's also the absence of typical gangya found in Moro kalis, instead it uses the guard similar to Luzon/Visayan kris.

I think you may be onto something with the Luzon Kris idea. I did some quick searching and there are definitely some more similarities - longer blades, more luk (thanks for that term Ian), similar guards, straight grips etc. Have a look at the examples in this older post I found while searching:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15997

Ian · 22nd January 2022, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by efrahjalt

I think you may be onto something with the Luzon Kris idea. I did some quick searching and there are definitely some more similarities - longer blades, more luk (thanks for that term Ian), similar guards, straight grips etc. Have a look at the examples in this older post I found while searching:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15997

efrajait,

Thanks for bringing up that old thread. I agree that a northern Luzon origin is a distinct possibility. However, as you will see from the comments of Battara in that thread, there are/were Moro craftsmen in northern Luzon/Ilocos Norte also. The example that I showed in that thread (post no. 14) lacks a central ridge to the blade.

Battara · 22nd January 2022, 10:46 PM

I have also been recently informed that Tagalogs also made wavy blades as well.

kai · 23rd January 2022, 12:52 PM

Hello Ian,

Quote:

I agree that a northern Luzon origin is a distinct possibility. However, as you will see from the comments of Battara in that thread, there are/were Moro craftsmen in northern Luzon/Ilocos Norte also.

Yes, although by the time this blade got forged they most likely got acculturated (or left for good).

Note that for example the tip is distinct from what you see in genuine Moro blades (and size is often longer, too). There are enough wavy blades throughout the Christian part of the Philippines and there seems to be no reason why we need to attribute pieces like this to Moro bladesmiths (as opposed to just cultural ideas getting picked up by neighbouring communities).

I bet that the tang of this blade is not a typical Moro tang either...

Regards,
Kai

RobT · 28th January 2022, 08:19 PM

Hi All,

I have a dagger with a slanted guard and a serpentine blade that I always thought came from the Philippines. The hilt of my dagger is composed wide bands of horn and four clear plastic washers (Japanese aircraft windshield perhaps). The horn pommel section is slanted parallel to the guard. The through tang is held by a knobbed and rimmed brass washer but the one piece guard/ferrule is some sort of non-ferrous white metal (maybe aluminum). The dagger OAL is about 13.25" (33.65cm) with a blade length of about 8.75" (22.22cm). I never doubted that the hilt and blade were made in the Philippines at the same time during or after WWll.
If efrahjalt's blade dates from on or before the Spanish-American war (1889), it is a lot older than the hilt because, back then, aluminum was so rare that, at the Paris Exposition Universelle of 1855, a bar of it was exhibited alongside the French Crown Jewels. As of 1890 it still had 20% of that value. Given the careful quality of the hilt, I believe that, if the sword was rehilted, it was done by a Filipino during WWll. There was plenty of aluminum from downed aircraft lying around and plastic resins were also available.
I have to say that I agree with David and A. G. Maisey. Calling any serpentine blade a kris (or a keris), unless it has the qualifying morphological characteristics can only lead to confusion.

Sincerely,
RobT

22nd January 2022, 02:50 AM	#1
efrahjalt Member Join Date: Mar 2020 Posts: 40	A Flamberge Sword For Comments Hi All I have had this flamberge bladed sword for a few years and it's been a bit of a mystery to me. I would like to know more about it if possible. Some of the shapes on this blade remind me of weapons from the Philippines. The slanted guard for example reminds me of the slant seen on keris, and the flamberge blade of course is commonly found in SE Asian weapons. That said I haven't seen anything quite like it so have no idea where to place it in time or culture. The blade is beautifully carved with very well done and crisp waves. Having done some blade making myself I have an appreciation for how much effort this would take to do nicely. The hilt however leaves something to be desired which makes be wonder if it is a later addition. The metal hilt parts are aluminum which makes it quite recent, but the blade appears to have a little more age to it. Hard to say for sure. Am I onto something? The blade is 30-1/2 in and the total length is 36-1/2in, so it's not a small blade, and if it's from the Philippines it's quite large compared to typical swords from that part of the world. I would love to hear your thoughts on this one if any. Thanks! Attached Images

28th January 2022, 08:19 PM	#9
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 493	Another Slanted Guard/Serpentine Blade Hi All, I have a dagger with a slanted guard and a serpentine blade that I always thought came from the Philippines. The hilt of my dagger is composed wide bands of horn and four clear plastic washers (Japanese aircraft windshield perhaps). The horn pommel section is slanted parallel to the guard. The through tang is held by a knobbed and rimmed brass washer but the one piece guard/ferrule is some sort of non-ferrous white metal (maybe aluminum). The dagger OAL is about 13.25" (33.65cm) with a blade length of about 8.75" (22.22cm). I never doubted that the hilt and blade were made in the Philippines at the same time during or after WWll. If efrahjalt's blade dates from on or before the Spanish-American war (1889), it is a lot older than the hilt because, back then, aluminum was so rare that, at the Paris Exposition Universelle of 1855, a bar of it was exhibited alongside the French Crown Jewels. As of 1890 it still had 20% of that value. Given the careful quality of the hilt, I believe that, if the sword was rehilted, it was done by a Filipino during WWll. There was plenty of aluminum from downed aircraft lying around and plastic resins were also available. I have to say that I agree with David and A. G. Maisey. Calling any serpentine blade a kris (or a keris), unless it has the qualifying morphological characteristics can only lead to confusion. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images Last edited by RobT; 28th January 2022 at 08:27 PM. Reason: addition

22nd January 2022, 08:19 AM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Hello efrahjalt: Welcome to the forum, and thank you for posting this interesting sword! As you note, this is probably a sword from the southern Philippines, with the blade forged by a Moro panday. The curves appear to be forged rather than created by stock removal. In total, I count 27 luk, which is an unusually high number for the Moro kris that this sword seems to be based on. I think the highest number of luk on a Moro kris that I have seen is 21. Also, a blade length over 30 inches is really uncommon. There were long swords developed during the Japanese Occupation Period (1941-1945). The blade is clearly missing its gangya (perhaps never had one) and might well be a custom made piece for a foreigner. The hilt is highly atypical, of course, for a Moro blade. Is the hilt mostly horn or wood? An interesting sword made for someone outside the Moro culture. Probably WWII-era manufacture, or shortly afterwards.

22nd January 2022, 11:47 AM	#3
chmorshuutz Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 54	Reminds me of those kris from Luzon and Visayas, those are much pointier than their Moro counterparts. Then there's also the absence of typical gangya found in Moro kalis, instead it uses the guard similar to Luzon/Visayan kris.

22nd January 2022, 12:46 PM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	I agree: This blade doesn't look like Moro craftsmanship - much more likely one of the northern look-alikes. Only the slanted base is unusual... Regards, Kai

22nd January 2022, 10:46 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,221	I have also been recently informed that Tagalogs also made wavy blades as well.