Islamic Crossbow?

[B.I]

i am trying to look into the crossbow in medieval and post medieval islamic culture. there are 3 examples known, 'believed' to be islamic. these are almost exactly like the german wood/ivory examples of the 15thC, with a slight styling of the ivory which hints at islamic influence.

is anyone aware of any reference, whether text or image that can validate the existance of this weapon in islamic hands, in any country influenced by islamic culture?

would greatly appreciate any input.

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi Brian,

I think I have seen a crossbow on an Indian painting - I will have to have a look.

Jens

[B.I]

thanks jens, any help would be greatly appreciated. sculpture or text especially, or persian islamic painting. unfortunately indian painting only flourished after the moghuls, with the very occasional early example being crude and normally not of use.
however, even if it is moghul or post moghul, at least it shows the idea was adapted.
ideally, i am after pre 16thC islam, whether indian, persian, turkish etc. a written accout would be excellent.

[Rivkin]

Ofcoarse:
"The Mamluks in Egyptian politics and society" edited by Thomas Philipp and Ulrich Haarmann
"Studies on the Mamluks of Egypt" David Ayalon

As far as I remember in the first book there is an article on mamluk theology. As I remember Mamluks used "arab" bows (standard bows), "turkish" bows (long, heavy arrows) and "persian" bows (crossbows, or "foot-activated bows"). The latter ones were extremely popular, however there was a theologic problem - nowadays forgotten sunna about Mohammed supervising his troops and saying "why are you using persian swords and bows ? You should use only arab weapons !". The solution was found in stating that he meant that one should not use the weapon of kafir, for persians at the time were kafir.

Since turks and persians converted you can use their weapons, but you can't use firearms for they are "christian sunna" (Ayalon quotes the last speach of Tuman-Bey in which he accuses ottoman in violating this law by using "christian sunna" - guns).

[B.I]

thank you krill, thats wonderful.
do you have these books and can you quote the phrase. if this isnt possible, do remember which book mentioned the crossbow and i will find it and source the quote myself.
much appreciated.

[B.I]

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Since turks and persians converted you can use their weapons, but you can't use firearms for they are "christian sunna" (Ayalon quotes the last speach of Tuman-Bey in which he accuses ottoman in violating this law by using "christian sunna" - guns).

very interesting. i am not familiar with 'christian sunna' and its meaning.
the firearms theology i am aware of.
its a strange concept, that if you cut off someones head, the body still remains 'whole' as in, it still exists in the material world, even if in two pieces.
but, firearms cause the body to be partially destroyed when meeting their maker, and so you are undoing what your deity has created.
very strange.

[fernando]

Sorry if this is nonsense ...
What about the muslim crossbow being of portuguese ( or partly ) influence ?
By the time Afonso de Albuquerque defeated and practically controlled all the sea and coast, from the straight of Ormuz, all India west coast, down to Malaca,( around 1505 ), he personnaly took it as a modernity that all the archers from his fleet used the crossbow, while João de Barros and others from the period, quoted that, muslims and turks were armed with normal bows, some of them very powerfull and sofisticated.
At least several crossbows were left back or captured during the inumerous battles ... this could be a start, like other known cases of invader/defender influence on altering or adopting eachother's weapons.
If this is a plausible possibility, i can translate a few historical quotations, added by pictures.

[Tim Simmons]

Some how I do not think this is what you had in mind, it is a trifle 'ethnographic'. The crossbow was and might still be in use in Malaya. Tim

[B.I]

krill,
thanks for your input. i will check all the sources you have mentioned. i have access to libraries other than my own although i doubt i will find some of the books you mentioned. i will pursue them anyway.
jens,
thanks for the links you sent me, which show the development in china and surrounding countries.
tim,
great picture i'd like to imagine a walled garrison to the right, out of shot but think it may be some unfortunate bird who's in for a bit of a shock.

i think what i am looking for is a way to suppress the doubt, academically, that crossbows were made and used by islamic forces pre 1500. the ones i am refering to are too close in construction to german pieces which infuses doubt that they were made by an islamic hand, as apposed to being adapted for use, or made by europeans in islamic countries and pulling in certain artistic traits.
so, i suppose i need the definate period mentions that krill hinted at, maybe in a muslim manual, or sculpture. i do really appreciate everyone help and am sure the truth can be revealed eventually.

[fernando]

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

[B.I]

Originally Posted by fernando

In this site you can read some parts relative to Rivkin's quoting Mohamed comdemning the use of non arab ( persian ) crossbows.http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/fes_celebrate.html

thank you fernando. although this steps into religion and mythology, it is still a dated mention of a weapon that could be the crossbow. i can use this, as this information will be passed on to someone (invloved with me) who will try and re-translate this quote, to verify that it is indeed a crossbow, and not a bow. much appreciated.
what i need is also an image, preferable in sculpture that will show the crossbow being used at the time in question.

[fernando]

Furthermore, it can’t be used by cavalry, due to the difficult loading procedure. So, if your are looking for such a weapon in the Islamic armies, I suggest to look into the Naval warfare or check areas, where towns were under the thread of siege.
Crossbows, if i learnt it right, since its inventing by the chinese, took all forms of dimensions and uses, from bolt to clay or iron bullit throwers, from siege giants to "small" hunting arms. Also its adoption was much spread within time and regions, not meaning they prevailed with those that originaly adopted it, or if those adopters were the whole of part of a determined race, islamic or other.
The portuguese XV chronicles are univocal at quoting that the local warriors ( along all that coast ) used normal bows, against the portuguese archers crossbows ( no translation problems ). This not meaning that all peoples of India were never familiar to the crossbow, nor that it was of portuguese invention or even of portuguese production ( plenty and good ones were german ).
On the other hand, crossbows were also in cavalry. As an example, King Dom Sebastião ( 1557 ) fought the Moors in Alcacer Kibir with a personal Horse Guard of crossbow archers. There are examples left.
However three centuries before, by the time of christian reconquery (1139-1263 ), the moor armies fighting the portuguese, already had the crossbow in regular weaponry. The "Cauçalarab", depicted in figure 85, was very light and quick to remount. Although it had less penetration power, it came to be adopted by the christians.
Just a pitty is only a drawing and not a picture or a sculpture, to be a solid example of islamic pre-XV century crossbow presence.

[B.I]

2 examples of 15thC european crossbows, both in italy (not in the same place). these are of the type i am looking for. the differences between the 'islamic' and the european are very minor, and just in the style of fittings.

[B.I]

hi,
i have been meaning to revive this post for some time, but the thought of dredging back through my notes was too daunting. i would like to thank everyone that helped, especially marc who continued to find some great information. i do have a few more questions, mainly to confirm and expand what already been discussed.

marc -
you mentioned Cantigas de Alfonso X showing muslims carrying crossbows. has this been published in any form that i can access?
also, is there an illustration anywhere of the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas and do they indeed show mounted crossbowmen?
and you mentioned the death of King Jaume I of Aragon. is this legend or can i find a published account. i did search for a while, but only found reference of his death, and no actual details. is there a book i can find?
the treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi - can i find this published anywhere to see the reference to crossbows.
is the facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X available anywhere (British library - or better to buy?)
also, you said -
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book.do you mean the frescoes are shown in soler del campos book? also, which nicholle book are you refering to?
also, is is worth tracking down soler del campos book? are the illustrations clear enough to make out the crossbow?

fernando -
you mentioned "Historia Silense " ( Perez de Urbel y Ruiz-Zorrilla - pages 189-190 ) is this in portuguese? do you have this publication and could you scan the relevant pages (inc title page)? this would be of great help, and i could get it translated here.
also, you said -
In the French National Library of Paris, there is ( at least ) an illumination of the great siege of Rhodes, in 1480, where you can clearly see the gear of both Otoman Turks and the Knights Hospitalers ( St. John of Jerusalem ), with the Turks using a consistent shape of crossbows ( one with a highly powerfull cranequin, a ratchet device that spanned a 450 ratio tension ).you also showed the illustration, but is there any more details (artist, date) on this painting? can you let me know the book the image came from?

krill - your references were great and i am tracking them down.
again, thanks to everyone else. this post provided enough information to answer the question and the sources tapped into were astounding.

[Marc]

Hello, Brian.

Ok, let's see...

Originally Posted by B.I

marc -
you mentioned Cantigas de Alfonso X showing muslims carrying crossbows. has this been published in any form that i can access?

Yes, it's a well-studied book... but not from the point of view of military matters. So, in many of the published works related to it you can't be sure the illuminations you're interested in are in fact reproduced. Your best bet is a facsimile of the original illuminated manuscript (held at the El Escorial Library), but these tend to be... well, quite extremely expensive. Also, the book by Álvaro Soler del Campo is absolutely out of print, near-impossible to get. You can try, if you want, maybe you're luckier than me:
SOLER DEL CAMPO, Álvaro. "La evolución del armamento medieval en el reino Castellano-Leonés y Al-Andalus (Siglos XII-XIV)", Ed. by Servicio de Publicaciones del E.M.E (Colección Adalid, #33), Madrid, 1993.
ISBN: 84-86806-44-5
But I wouldn't hold my breath.

Nonetheless, I think the best course of action is the following: I'll try to photocopy the relevant figures in the book, together with the related text (in Spanish, I'm afraid) and send them to you. The images are small, in b&w, and, sincerely, quite bad overall. But should be OK if strictly for reference purposes. If you want better images, I found that there's what seems to be a good facsimile of the Cantigas original book in the BL:

Here's the reference

Next:

also, is there an illustration anywhere of the frescoes found in the Torre de las Damas and do they indeed show mounted crossbowmen?

Yes, they're mounted crossbowmen. As far as I know there's only one illustration of these frescoes: the pencil sketch done by Gómez Moreno at the end of the 19th c. It is the one you'll find reproduced everywhere. I have it Soler del Campo's Book and some other sources, I'll photocopy it for you. Funny how things go... the drawing was done by Gómez Moreno senior, a painter and proto-archaeologist. His son was a famous and prolific archaeologist, and I went a couple of weeks ago to Granada to research his personal archives, now in a Foundation that bears his name, and got a book about Gómez Moreno senior only to have a better example of these drawings...


Next:

and you mentioned the death of King Jaume I of Aragon. is this legend or can i find a published account. i did search for a while, but only found reference of his death, and no actual details. is there a book i can find?

Yes. The incident with the crossbow bolt is described in the King's own words in a Crònica (Chronicle) written (or made written) by himself. It is also known as Llibre del Feyts or "Book of the Deeds". There's some English translations, I found one in PDF for you here. Look at chapter/paragraph number 266 (page 136), where the mentioned incident is described. If you look for the word "crossbow" in the text some other references of thier use in Muslim hands could appear, tough I think the majority of them relate to its use by Christians.

the treatise from 1180 written by Al-Tartusi - can i find this published anywhere to see the reference to crossbows.

I'm sorry, no idea, here, but there is an article (in French, I'm afraid), by Claude Cahen that might be of interest. I'ts published in the Bulletin d’études orientales, and it's entitled Un Traité d’armurerie compose pour Saladin. [On the treatise of Murḍā ibn 'Alī al-Ṭarsūsī contained in Bodleian MS. Hunt. 264. With extracts.]. The reference I found in the BL is here

I would like to, again, strongly recommend you to take a look at the article I referenced you here as it deals with the references to the crossbows in a Moorish manuscript on archery, the original text of which is dated to around 1069-1091. The PDF version of this article is here

is the facsimile copy of the Cantigas de Alfonso X available anywhere (British library - or better to buy?)

See above for the reference to an exemplar in the BL

also, you said -
The frescoes in the Torre de las Damas in the Alhambra are also shown there, though in the form of a drawing. Said drawing was done long ago by Gomez-Moreno, an Spanish arabist and archaeologist, and I seem to remember (might be wrong, here, but it can be checked) that the original frescoes are almost illegible now. They are also found in Nicolle's book.do you mean the frescoes are shown in soler del campos book? also, which nicholle book are you refering to?

See also above. The Nicolle's book is the one I referencied in my first post:
NICOLLE, David. "Early Islamic Arms and Armour", Ed. by Instituto de Estudios sobre armas antiguas, Consejo Superior de Investigaciones Científicas, Madrid(?), 1976.
Also absolutely out of print, I'm afraid.

Pleas, give me a couple of weeks to gather all the information I said I would send you, and you'll have it there. I’m swamped in work, right now.
Feel free to e-mail me for any details about the shipping…

[fernando]

Sorry for the late reply
I thaught you were not coming back because you had enough material for you work on the Islamic crossbow, and i didn't check your recent posting.
Not that this is dramatic, as Mark's huge amount of information covers by far my humble contribution to the subject.
I have being trying for the last three days to spot again the web page about the narration of the torture inflicted to that Moor crossbowman, to insert it here for you. I don't remember whether it was in English, Spanish or Portuguese, and probably ununderstandable to you. I rather tell you here that "Historia Silense" is a sort of Epic of the Spanyards, in the period of the Reconquest of the Iberian Peninsula from the Moors.
... Eventually the quoted events in 1028 took place in cities of the Portugal region, but this was still a County, under Spanish rule, only becaming a Kingdom 1139 ...
This cronicle was written by a Spanish anonimous, eventually a Monk, around 1115, and was ( again?) edited in 1959 by Perez de Urbel and Ruiz Zorrilla, also eventually Monks.
This must be a current and acquirable book ... if ever you get it, or if you get copies of pages 189-190, i have no problem to translate them for you, or rather Mark will.
Also if you search the Web on Alfonso V de Leon, father in law of King Fernando I de Castela, you will spot several quotations, leaving no doubt that he was killed in 1028 ( some say 1027), by a bolt shot from the walls of Viseu, during its siege. This archer must be the guy that was tortured by Fernando I, whom was sieging Coimbra, some fourty miles away, and also a target in the same campaign. In pages 189-190 of the cronicle, there must be a closing link.

I have posted a reply on the Rhode Siege Illumination right after your previous question, which i recall here:

I found this illlumination by chance, in a book edited in portuguese, about piracy and corso.I later found that it is included in the written account of Guillaume Caoursin, titled " Descriptio Obsidionis Rhodiae urbis " ( circa 1490 ), an eye witness of the events, actually the vice-chancelier of the Knights siege defenders at Rhodes. It is kept at the Bibliotheque National in Paris, MS lat.6067, f. 55v.
But coming to the Turk crossbow version, you can also track, before the Ottomans Rhodes episode, already their antecessors, the Seljuks ( XI-XIII century ), had crossbowmen in their armies.

I take this chance to refine a statement i made in a previous posting, about crossbow and bow being undistinguishable in some ancient languages:

These type of texts are or come from writings of the period, and there is no misinterpretation of terminology. A bow is an "arco" ( arch ) and a crossbow is a "besta" ( beast ) or whatever subnames derived from the crossbow evolution and variations..

Amazingly the portuguese word for Beast and Crossbow is written the same way: Besta. The different sounding of the "e" makes it either be the actual Besta=Beast ( from Latin Bestia=Animal ) or Besta=Crossbow ( from Latin Ballista (( like for Balistic=Projectile throwing )).Reason why it's called Ballesta in Spanish.). Tricky situation, even for the common Portuguese.
But distinguishably a Bow is an "Arco" ( Latin Arcu - Arquu=Vault ), both in Castilian and Portuguese.

I have found meanwhile some other web sources. If i filter out something solid in them, i will post it in this thread.
Keep well.
Fernando