Maximum size of kris?

[Steven C.]

Hi, I'm new here. I'm only 16 but I've been fascinated by weapons ever since I was a little kid, so far my collection ammounts to a Mosin Nagant 91/30 Soviet Russian rifle made in 1939, complete with bayonet (picked it up for 99 bucks, thier so cheap and plentiful everyone should own one) and on the less glorious side a 20 dollar wall hanger katana that didnt even try to immitate same. It's about as sharp as a butter knife.

I'm looking to change that, hehe.

I used to never care bout the kris, but after maybe a day of lurking around this place checking old topics it and the kampilan has really grown on me.

I'm wondering how long could a kris get? And how is it used, some of them are really thin and wavy which makes me think of a stabber. The others are thick and straight which makes me think chopper. So whats the max length of a kris and how is it used?

Also whats the difference between a kris and keris?

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Steven C.

...

I'm wondering how long could a kris get? And how is it used, some of them are really thin and wavy which makes me think of a stabber. The others are thick and straight which makes me think chopper. So whats the max length of a kris and how is it used?

Also whats the difference between a kris and keris?

there are short keris, and long ones, straight ones and wavy ones with many waves (luks - always an odd number, even is unlucky & never done).

there are the broad moro style (sundang) ones that were used for draw cuts like a katana, and could also be used for thrusts; the US Marines recorded instances where a moro actually cut a marine in two with one back in the early 20thC insurrection - it's why the army dropped their 'economic' .38 cal. pistols in favor of the .45. the moro's are muslim's and are very bellicose and independant (the bean counters issued the US with .38's again before Iraq, and again they're finding it inadequate against muslim insurectionists & alot use old .45s when they are allowed - those who forget history are forced to relive it)

the lighter indonesian ones are normally thought of as thrusting weapons, tho they have assumed more magical powers and thus can accomplish by magic what they are no longer desiring to accomplish by brute force.

the long straight ones are sometimes thought of as 'executioner' kris, as they are frequently carried by the high ranking rulers and can be used to dispense justice with a quick downward thrust behind the collarbone and down into the heart of the kneeling criminal. they all of course nowadays are not used in battle as weapons, but are artistic and magical living history.

as far as i know, keris, kris, kreese, etc. are phonetic spellings of the same basic indonesian / moro item, kris is not used alot on ebay as if it is used in a search filter it tends to bring up a zillion kris kristopherson cd's, etc.

that's just for starters, i'm just a beginner & there are many man-centuries of experienced keris affecionados here, there are so many variations in the grips, blades, scabbards, metallurgy, and history that it is an endlessly fascinating field of collection to get into. i'm sure the others here who are more knowledgeable will add to your enthusiasm.

after all, there are also rencong, badek, parangs, pedangs, gunongs, punals, talibons, klewangs, siwar, barong, kampilan and a zillion more in additon to keris, all with their own variations. like japanese weapons, they all have their own descriptive language for the variations, and this can be picked up with study and experience, you will soon be thinking in terms of mendak, pamor, etc. as you progress and add to you collection. (see this Linky ) the other links on that page will bring up a host of wonders. they don't go much into kujangs tho, like this one of mine, another fascinating style:

oh, by the way welcome aboard. you have been assimilated.

[Henk]

Steven,

Welcome to the forum.

Rule one: we never talk about money. Though I can understand your enthousiasm, we discuss weapons and not values. Take a day off and search the forum with the words keris and kris. Then you will learn a lot. When you have some time to spare search for the weapons kronckew named.

You are young and in the beginning of collecting. You will make mistakes, like we all did and sometimes still do. If those mistakes are not too expensive, it is a learning moment. Don't ask questions on pending auctions, but a PM to a knowledgeable member can give you the answers you might need.

Good luck with hunting!!

[Steven C.]

Thank you both, but my original question stands, whats the maximum size of a kris?

Btw, I realise prices arent allowed, but am I allowed to ask where I can find items? I'm really interested in finding a nice huge kampilan but I'd prefer not to use ebay unless theres a buy now option. The kampilan has really grown on me.

And to the second poster, I dont see how you can chop a man in half with a kris! I mean do you mean like literally chopped in half across the torso!?

[Spunjer]

...whats the maximum size of a kris?

here's a link that's gonna help you more about moro weapons:


http://home.earthlink.net/~federicomalibago/index.html


as for the max size, i have one that has a 28" blade (almost 2 inches wide), and as far as length, i haven't seen a longer one than that. with the size of this and the weight, yes you can cleave a man in half. as for where you can buy a kampilan, a forum member by the name of artzi carries them on his website from time to time.


http://www.oriental-arms.com/

[kai]

Welcome Steven!

as for where you can buy a kampilan, a forum member ... carries them on his website from time to time.

Bring your wallet though. Buying from experienced dealers is not a bad strategy (especially until getting enough knowledge) IF you can afford it. You'll hardly ever get a real bargain from someone who has to live from selling nice stuff.

I'd recommend posting "wanted ads" at the swap forum - some members occasionally part from decent pieces when upgrading their private collections and I've seen fair or even quite cheap prices more often than inflated prices. However, always keep in mind the collectors prime motto "caveat emptor" and ask one or more members via PM before finalizing any transaction.

Regards,
Kai

[nechesh]

Hey Steven, welcome to the forum.
So what what you are saying then is that size does matter, eh?
As Kronckew explained, a distinction must be made between Indonesian keris which are generally dagger length and the beefer, sword length Moro kris. The spellings are actually interchangable, but generally on this forun we have adopted "keris" for the Indo blade and "kris" for the Moro sword (sometimes called a sundang or a kalis as well) to avoid confusion. Moro kris tend to be extremely combat ready swords and would be my personal choice for a blade in a sword fight. The Indo keris tend to be more complex and variant in form, often with complex pamor patterns in the iron which hold various talismanic and protective significance. For me personally, as an artform in metal they are unsurpassed.
To answer your question, you will find the sword lenght Moro kris between the sizes of about 18" (mostly the older ones) up to about 28". This is just blade lenght, not hilt included. I would not be surprised if you found some slightly longer, but i would say the average ones are in the low to mid 20s range. They tend to be VERY edge sharp and while actually cleaving a man in two might be a rarity they were capable of inflicting deep and mortal damage, often cutting from the collar bone down deep into the middle of the chest.
The Indo keris is a stabbing weapon, so this type of damage is not possible with those blades. Over the centuries the Indo keris moved away from being a physical weapon and took a place in Indonesian culture as an object of status, power, family lineage and spiritual and magickal practice.
Hope that helps. As Henk suggests, use the search function. You will also find more info searching the old forums. happy hunting.

[kronckew]

This current thread here has more interesting info on moro kris, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=moro

including the interesting internet version of 'swish of the kris' on the moro insurrection of the early 1900's

http://www.bakbakan.com/swishkb.html

it was in there that i read the bit about the report of the marine being cut in two. (i think that one was a barong tho) i am certainly aware of them (kris, barong, etc.) having been capable of cutting from the shoulder down thru deep in the chest of a victim. the filipino's made some of the best steel weapons outside of europe in a time when they were being phased out in europe and thus were probably even better.

it is interesting to note the variations in spelling of the different terms, again probably because of phonetic spelling. (campilane = kampilan, etc.)

[kai]

there are the broad moro style (sundang) ones that were used for draw cuts like a katana, and could also be used for thrusts; the US Marines recorded instances where a moro actually cut a marine in two with one back in the early 20thC insurrection

As already noted, that was a barong AFAIK but there is no doubt that a Moro kris can be similarly devastating. In the same vein, there was another recent thread where a veteran of the Filipino army was cited as having stated that he never saw any victim of a kris attack survive due to the severe wounds (under the limited medical care options in remote jungles)!

it's why the army dropped their 'economic' .38 cal. pistols in favor of the .45.

Actually, that's a myth. It's true that the .38 usually didn't have enough stopping power to deal with juramentado attacks. But the limited stopping power (in different combat situations) was already well known before the Spanish-American war and I recall that the switch to the .45 had been already decided, too. However, it often seems to take ages to get equipment upgrades distributed to regular combat soldiers rather than to just a few elite units.

Regards,
Kai

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by kai

Actually, that's a myth. It's true that the .38 usually didn't have enough stopping power to deal with juramentado attacks. But the limited stopping power (in different combat situations) was already well known before the Spanish-American war and I recall that the switch to the .45 had been already decided, too. However, it often seems to take ages to get equipment upgrades distributed to regular combat soldiers rather than to just a few elite units.

Can you cite some references for your opinion that its a myth?
There is a good article in a old magazine "The Gun Report vol.37,#1", that records the history of the switch during and after the Philippine American War 1902 when the US continued the fight in the Moro territories. Soldiers wanted the .45 revolvers over the issued .38 because they saw Moros fighting after multiple shots and cutting down their opponent. Development of the .45 automatic took about a decade with the 1911 issue while still fighting the Moro. The military even admit it was the battles with the Moro that cause the switch on one of their promotional posters.

[kai]

Hello Mabagani,

Can you cite some references for your opinion that its a myth?

Give me a little time - I'll try to look for my sources.

Regards,
Kai

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Mabagani,


Give me a little time - I'll try to look for my sources.

Regards,
Kai

Okay, here is a quote from the mag about the contracted use of the.38 by the US navy and army "...much to the annoyance of the American soldiers. This continued as late as 1909, when Brigadier General John J. Pershing was serving his second Philippine tour. On December 24, 1909, he wrote to a friend of an incident wherein an Army captain was attacked by a blade-wielding Moro. The officer fired all six rounds from his .38 caliber revolver into the Moro, who pressed the attack and cut the captain to pieces. The assailant was finally dispatched by a guard with a .45 caliber bullet."

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by kai

Actually, that's a myth.. .38...switch to the .45

Here's the Department of the Army poster no. 21-48 published in 1953 The US Army in Action. The text reads: "The four day battle of Bagsak Mountain on Jolo Island in the Philippines took place from the 11 to 15 June 1913. Americans of the 8th Infantry and the Philippine Scouts, commanded by Captain John J. Pershing, brought to an end years of bitter struggle against the Moro pirates. These Bolo men, outlaws of great physical endurance and savage fighting ability, were well organized under their Datus or chiefs. They had never been conquered during several centuries of Spanish rule in the Philippines. The US Army .45 caliber pistol was developed to meet the need for a weapon with enough striking power to stop fanatical charges of lawless Moro tribesmen in hand-to-hand fighting."

The myth here was the quote "brought to an end years of bitter struggle against the Moro", battles continued censored until the military left in 1936.

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by kai

Actually, that's a myth. It's true that the .38 usually didn't have enough stopping power to deal with juramentado attacks. But the limited stopping power (in different combat situations) was already well known before the Spanish-American war and I recall that the switch to the .45 had been already decided, too.

An "old salt Light Colonel" in the Marines once told me that the (M1911 ACP) 45 was developed (and put into service) due to the ineffective stopping power of the 38 revolver during the Philippines conflict. I do not believe it was a myth.

Originally Posted by kronckew

it's why the army dropped their 'economic' .38 cal. pistols in favor of the .45. the moro's are muslim's and are very bellicose and independant (the bean counters issued the US with .38's again before Iraq, and again they're finding it inadequate against muslim insurectionists & alot use old .45s when they are allowed - those who forget history are forced to relive it).

Actually, the 9mm (Beretta 92F, or "M9") replaced the good ole 45... and not without some grumbling in the ranks.

[Spunjer]

... a continuation of what BSMStar was saying (more of a full circle):

Actually, the 9mm (Beretta 92F, or "M9") replaced the good ole 45... and not without some grumbling in the ranks.

and at the same time backing up what mabagani states in regards to the development of M1911:


a recent excerpt from the latest edition of American Rifleman magazine,
NRA's 'Official Journal' (July 2006). the article was written by Wiley
Clapp, field editor.


Back To the Future? U.S. Military .45s, pp.36-37

"We have come to understand the flawed logic of selecting a
high-capacity 9mm pistol, simply because it holds lots of shots. Even the .40
S&W compromise, which gives us fewer shots and bigger bullets than the
9mm, has not always worked well as it should. The best solution to the
problem would seem to be the one adopted in 1911 - a .45 ACP handgun.

Any student of firearm history is aware of the fact that we have been
through this before and for exactly the same reasons. We once change
from a single-action .45 Colt revolver of adequate power to a .38 Long
Colt revolver of inadequate power, just because the latter was lighter,
more modern double-action design.

When the .38 Long Colt faced a determined enemy in the Philippines,
it didn't performed well, and we ended up rushing the older .45 Colt
guns out of arsenal storage and into the hands of the troops. Then, a
program of development was initiated that resulted in the best service
pistol and service pistol cartridge in the history of arms. The M1911 Colt
in .45 ACP served us well in two world wars, Korea, Vietnam and other
conflicts throughout the troubled 20th century."

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by BSMStar

Actually, the 9mm (Beretta 92F, or "M9") replaced the good ole 45... and not without some grumbling in the ranks.

9mm is a .38 (well, actually a .38 is really a .357 and a 9mm converts to .355 in, but a lot of 9mm's have .357 barrels & they are basically & technically the same) the beretta is obviously not a .38 revolver, but i'm sure the bean counters would have supplied them if they could have done it cheaper or if they had stocks of them left over from the 19th c. designs change, bean counters are forever.

(i am prejudiced because the few times i went armed for real i used a .45 govt. model, and got my expert pistol medal with one...)

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by kronckew

9mm is a .38 (well, actually a .38 is really a .357 and a 9mm converts to .355 in, but a lot of 9mm's have .357 barrels & they are basically & technically the same) the beretta is obviously not a .38 revolver, but ...)

Sorry to disagree, but the 9mm Parabellum (for war) was introduced in 1902 by the Germans with the well prized "Luger," and I would not try to chamber a .38 in a 9mm weapon. LOL.

I would love to debate the differences but I do not wish to hijack this thread.

[kronckew]

you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. some dead horses like beating also. the thread has been hijacked already by picking up and disagreeing with what was meant to be a marginal aside on my original discussion of the 'terminal ballistics' of moro edged weapons against US troops. i offer the following to try to terminate this discussion as i do not want anyone left with incomplete facts.

those who have been a gun nut or been involved in hand loading & Terminal Ballistics (linky) will see my point. if i'd a said 9mm parabellum cartridge and/or .38 long colt, .38 special, etc. you might have a leg to stand on, but talking about bullet diameter there is no practical difference and they are in the same family, and the effect on a target especially will be very closely the same given the same construction, velocity and bullet weight. the 9mm is classed as a .38 caliber weapon, 9mm is just the european measurement for what is called a .38 in the US (actually .36, but called .38 for reasons not germain) the .002 inch difference in diameter only matters to handloaders, again, some 9mm weapons actually have .357 bores & may be more accurate with .357 hand loads in their 9mm parabellum cases. i won't get into mfg. tolerances, wear, rifling differences and their effects on bore dia. either. the above linky on terminal ballistics has more info than can be adequately covered here for anyone who wants to continue..

so, anyone who is chambering a 9mm parabellum cartridge IS effectively chambering a .38 caliber bullet.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by Steven C.

I'm wondering how long could a kris get? And how is it used, some of them are really thin and wavy which makes me think of a stabber. The others are thick and straight which makes me think chopper. So whats the max length of a kris and how is it used?

Also whats the difference between a kris and keris?

G'day Steven,
Welcome aboard mate.

There are no 'standards' for the length of a keris/kris. However, aficionados have some agreement as to what constitutes a 'normal' length. which also may be different for different regions, e.g. for the indo keris: the difference between what is considered 'normal' length in Java and that in Bali. Rather than having one specific value of length, 'normal' tends to be a range, e.g. for the Javanese keris it is about 33-38 cm.
Kerises can be found as small as only a few centimetres in length, but these tend to be talismanic in nature.
In the other extreme, kerises/krises can be quite MASSIVE! I have a keris which is approximately 1 metre in length and a kris which is about 1.3 metres.

The terms keris/kris/kriss/creese etc. are interchangeable, depending upon whom and what country you are dealing with.

Should you become interested interested in the Kujang.... that is a slightly different area. The Kujang didn't really develop until 1357..... their aficianados are a small bunch.. but very dedicated.


Anyway... there's a lot of info out there.. as well as in this forum. Decide what's best for you and ... God speed !

Cheers.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Steven,
I'd like to welcome you to the forum as well, and wanted to note that though I'm more than undisclosed decades older, I still have my trusty Moisin-Nagant sitting in the corner from many years ago...with the 'screwdriver' bayonet
I started collecting with worn old bayonets from war surplus stores that were usually in dusty barrels. Just remember, its about learning and not hesitating to ask questions, just like what you're doing.
We steer away from monetary values because of not only legal problems, but they have little to do with the historic value or identification of the weapon. As students of edged weapons and thier history, we typically consider such base focus irrelevant.

As you can see, the guys here are loaded with knowledge, and especially on the very esoteric keris, which is truly a fascinating weapon form. Regardless of how many years any of us has been at this, we are all still learning, and doing it together, so again, welcome!!!!

All the best,
Jim

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pangeran Datu

In the other extreme, kerises/krises can be quite MASSIVE! I have a keris which is approximately 1 metre in length and a kris which is about 1.3 metres.
Should you become interested interested in the Kujang.... that is a slightly different area. The Kujang didn't really develop until 1357..... their aficianados are a small bunch.. but very dedicated.

OK mate, i've don't quite know where i left that conversion chart , bur 1.3 metres! Are you talking about the entire sword or just the blade. Even so, that IS massive. I mean, that's well over 50 inches long then, isn't it? I can't imagine wielding that one. Any pictures?

I am also curious where you came up with the date of 1357 for the Kujang. Not to doubt you, It's not an impossible date, but it seems somewhat arbitrary to me. Could you cite your sources there.

[Mick]

nechesh

Surely you have hard of the "Processional Kerises" of Java that were used like the "City Swords" in Europe. They were also carried in a place of honor on the Sultan's boat while he was on board.

These are in the neighborhood of 5 feet in total length. I don't have any pictures on hand to stick in here so you'll just have to take my word that I have seen a few. I know that one was in the Museum in Jakarta in the mid 70's.

[nechesh]

Actually does sound familiar now that you mention it Mick. I was originally under the impression that Pangeran was talking about a Moro kris, but now that i go back and take a look i do see that he states the 1.3 metre blade is a keris, so if he is using our "forum code" i guess he is talking about and Indo piece. Understand i wasn't doubting him. I just want to see it.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Actually does sound familiar now that you mention it Mick. I was originally under the impression that Pangeran was talking about a Moro kris, but now that i go back and take a look i do see that he states the 1.3 metre blade is a keris, so if he is using our "forum code" i guess he is talking about and Indo piece. Understand i wasn't doubting him. I just want to see it.

Actually, I did mean a Moro kris. See my reply to your previous queries.

[Pangeran Datu]

Originally Posted by nechesh

OK mate, i've don't quite know where i left that conversion chart , bur 1.3 metres! Are you talking about the entire sword or just the blade. Even so, that IS massive. I mean, that's well over 50 inches long then, isn't it? I can't imagine wielding that one. Any pictures?

I am also curious where you came up with the date of 1357 for the Kujang. Not to doubt you, It's not an impossible date, but it seems somewhat arbitrary to me. Could you cite your sources there.

The 1.3 metre kris is part of my collection which is in a different state, so it's not handy to measure. From my recollection: It is Maranao. As the Maranao came into prominence much later than say, the Tao Gimba or Tao Higad, I would say it was a recent piece. I see that you are an Imperialist (joke), so for your benefit: the scabbard is about 50", the blade is about 'normal' 28" and the hilt about 1'.... from tip-to-tip in the scabbard... approximately 53".
Unfortunately, I have developed an aversion to that part of technology which involves taking pictures... hence I don't even own a camera.

As regards the Kujang: 1357 was when the 'Bubat Massacre' occurred and is very significant to the Sunda people, just as the 'Bud Daha Massacre' is to the Taosug. So, it's not arbitrary in any sense of the word. Quite the contrary, from this point on there existed a deep-seated hatred of the 'wong wetan' (Javanese). Even today, it still exists... if only as an under-current. Unfortunately, I can't cite my sources ( says he, tapping his nose with a wink ) but you may find references in 'Babad Sunda', 'Babad Bubat' and 'Pantun Bogor'.

Cheers.