Did the English make katars?

Jens Nordlunde · 19th April 2007, 06:05 PM

It is known that the English made kukris for their Nepalese soldiers, but did they also make katars for their Indian soldiers?

Lew · 19th April 2007, 06:14 PM

Jens

I saw an 19th century American made push dagger based on the katar design it sold on ebay a few months ago.

Lew

Rick · 19th April 2007, 06:18 PM

Was the Katar a weapon for the rank and file soldier?
According to Warren's Sulu Zone there were Sheffield krisses made for trade with the S.Philippine tribes.

Battara · 19th April 2007, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

According to Warren's Sulu Zone there were Sheffield krisses made for trade with the S.Philippine tribes.

B.I · 20th April 2007, 12:56 AM

This one was owned by a friend of mine. European without a doubt. You cant see the decoration on the side-guards, but 100% not Eastern, and 100% never made to be used in a battle.

Rick · 20th April 2007, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

You may be right in being skeptical Jose; after a consult of the book I may well be mistaken.

I could have sworn I read that .....

Jens Nordlunde · 19th April 2007, 07:14 PM

Hi Lew,

What I meant was, did the English make katars for their Indian troops.

I don't know Rick, but I don't think that I have never seen, nor heard of, English made katars.

Jens

B.I · 19th April 2007, 07:40 PM

Hi Jens,
Good question

Dont know about the English, but I have seen 'European' katars, but these are presentation pieces, and not done for 'common' soldiers. The style and craft is definately not Indian, and dont seem English either. The few I have seen have a French feel (Pondichery?), but thats just speculation.

Jim McDougall · 19th April 2007, 10:02 PM

Hi Jens,
Most interesting question, and well reasoned since as you point out, the British did indeed make kukris. The British were considerably busy during the last quarter of the 19th c and first part of the 20th, making many forms of 'colonial' weapons. They did make tulwars for native cavalry troops in the Northwest Frontier and I once had two of these made by Mole (Birmingham).

I'm not aware of any British made katars, and I believe these were as Rick and B.I. have noted, typically a weapon used by individuals of some status and not typically used by rank and file. As always, there would be exceptions as these became battlefield trophies.

All the best,
Jim

Andrew · 20th April 2007, 05:27 AM

The British did make dha, for use in Burma.

What about the katar being used by the rank and file? Was this truly a weapon of status? I've seen miniatures and artwork depicting what certainly looks like rank and file infantry with katars.

Matt Easton · 20th April 2007, 05:52 PM

We also made Pesh Kabz blades, because I have seen a classic Afghan pesh kabz with a London maker's name on the 'ricasso'.

Matt

fernando · 20th April 2007, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

What about the katar being used by the rank and file? Was this truly a weapon of status? I've seen miniatures and artwork depicting what certainly looks like rank and file infantry with katars.

As it appears, there certainly were luxurious katars for novelty, as well as humble katars for rank and file, and also for civilians. Being largely divulged in the west as a combat weapon, i have read that the katar was also meant for defence against tigre atack.
The example pictured is work of a Portuguese silversmith, mid XVIII century. Both scabbard and grip are chiseled silver, mounted on an European blade ( Rainer Dahehnardt collection ).
The marvelous oil paint depicts three Malabar warriors, holding a musket, a tulwar, a katar, a pata and a shield ( Georg Scheder-Bieschin collection ). I would say these guys look rank and file, right ?
fernando

Jens Nordlunde · 21st April 2007, 04:49 PM

Thank you for your posts – and the pictures. So, a small number of katars were made outside India, but were these katars made for Indians or for Europeans?

What made me start this thread was, that the English had many more Indian troops under weapons than they had Nepalese, and yet they made kukris for their Nepalese troops, but not katars for their Indian troops, I wonder why?

It seems as if the Indian troops got European blades from England and elsewhere, and the hilt was put on, on arrival, but why tulwar blades, why not katars as well?

ausjulius · 25th April 2007, 03:49 AM

i have seen golock and parang blades with englsh marks, the blades appeared to be i drop forged , . and i of high qaluity, i still nhave one some blace a thick quite cuvy parang made by taylor eye witness. about about 1,3 cm thick at the begining of the balde and then tapering out fast
good steel to, very well made,

i have never seel a english made kris..

i suspect some of the katas ive encountered have had blade s not of indian make, but ive not observed a stamp as of yet,
i dont know of the position of the kata, as i have encountered many many old katas that were clearly made for war, not later made ones, so i suspect that they were rather a common item indeed, atleast there is asmany katas seen as.. koras or far more i would think,
i suspect that they were infact a common arm, but they must have been also used as some for of rank , just pruely becuase of the large amounts of hughly decorated ones to be found

spiral · 25th April 2007, 09:24 PM

The 19th century English kukris Ive seen were made for private purchase by officers, whether Gurkha or other units, not issued to the enlisted man.{& wealthy colonial & Mararajah types of course.}

In early WW1 kukris were made in Sheffield {usualy inspected at Enfield though.} for the inlisted man, but at that time it would have been quicker to resupply Gurkhas in Belgium & France & possibly the Balkans, Egypt & Palastine from England than it would be from India. I doubt if many Katar were used by British army at this time?

I dont rule out any 19th century batches of kukri made for a particular inlisted men in Gurkha units but have never seen or heard of such items amongst the kukri collecters I know. Has anyone any evidence of any?

Sheffield firms including both Rodgers & Beal in particular exploited the Colonial markets in the 19th cenutry but they were all quite fancy items from what I have seen..

I understand from a reliable source there is an Ivory handled Kris at cutlers hall in Sheffield made by Joseph Beal but I havent seen it.

If katars were made in England cutlers hall would probably know if they were made in Sheffield. I have never heard of such an item. {not that that means much.}

Spiral

19th April 2007, 06:05 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Did the English make katars? It is known that the English made kukris for their Nepalese soldiers, but did they also make katars for their Indian soldiers?

20th April 2007, 12:56 AM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	This one was owned by a friend of mine. European without a doubt. You cant see the decoration on the side-guards, but 100% not Eastern, and 100% never made to be used in a battle. Attached Images

19th April 2007, 06:14 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jens I saw an 19th century American made push dagger based on the katar design it sold on ebay a few months ago. Lew

19th April 2007, 06:18 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Was the Katar a weapon for the rank and file soldier? According to Warren's Sulu Zone there were Sheffield krisses made for trade with the S.Philippine tribes.

19th April 2007, 07:14 PM	#7
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Lew, What I meant was, did the English make katars for their Indian troops. I don't know Rick, but I don't think that I have never seen, nor heard of, English made katars. Jens

19th April 2007, 07:40 PM	#8
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	Hi Jens, Good question Dont know about the English, but I have seen 'European' katars, but these are presentation pieces, and not done for 'common' soldiers. The style and craft is definately not Indian, and dont seem English either. The few I have seen have a French feel (Pondichery?), but thats just speculation.

19th April 2007, 10:02 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Jens, Most interesting question, and well reasoned since as you point out, the British did indeed make kukris. The British were considerably busy during the last quarter of the 19th c and first part of the 20th, making many forms of 'colonial' weapons. They did make tulwars for native cavalry troops in the Northwest Frontier and I once had two of these made by Mole (Birmingham). I'm not aware of any British made katars, and I believe these were as Rick and B.I. have noted, typically a weapon used by individuals of some status and not typically used by rank and file. As always, there would be exceptions as these became battlefield trophies. All the best, Jim

20th April 2007, 05:27 AM	#10
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	The British did make dha, for use in Burma. What about the katar being used by the rank and file? Was this truly a weapon of status? I've seen miniatures and artwork depicting what certainly looks like rank and file infantry with katars.

20th April 2007, 05:52 PM	#11
Matt Easton Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Surrey, Great Britain. Posts: 53	We also made Pesh Kabz blades, because I have seen a classic Afghan pesh kabz with a London maker's name on the 'ricasso'. Matt

21st April 2007, 04:49 PM	#13
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thank you for your posts – and the pictures. So, a small number of katars were made outside India, but were these katars made for Indians or for Europeans? What made me start this thread was, that the English had many more Indian troops under weapons than they had Nepalese, and yet they made kukris for their Nepalese troops, but not katars for their Indian troops, I wonder why? It seems as if the Indian troops got European blades from England and elsewhere, and the hilt was put on, on arrival, but why tulwar blades, why not katars as well?

25th April 2007, 03:49 AM	#14
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 422	i have seen golock and parang blades with englsh marks, the blades appeared to be i drop forged , . and i of high qaluity, i still nhave one some blace a thick quite cuvy parang made by taylor eye witness. about about 1,3 cm thick at the begining of the balde and then tapering out fast good steel to, very well made, i have never seel a english made kris.. i suspect some of the katas ive encountered have had blade s not of indian make, but ive not observed a stamp as of yet, i dont know of the position of the kata, as i have encountered many many old katas that were clearly made for war, not later made ones, so i suspect that they were rather a common item indeed, atleast there is asmany katas seen as.. koras or far more i would think, i suspect that they were infact a common arm, but they must have been also used as some for of rank , just pruely becuase of the large amounts of hughly decorated ones to be found

25th April 2007, 09:24 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	The 19th century English kukris Ive seen were made for private purchase by officers, whether Gurkha or other units, not issued to the enlisted man.{& wealthy colonial & Mararajah types of course.} In early WW1 kukris were made in Sheffield {usualy inspected at Enfield though.} for the inlisted man, but at that time it would have been quicker to resupply Gurkhas in Belgium & France & possibly the Balkans, Egypt & Palastine from England than it would be from India. I doubt if many Katar were used by British army at this time? I dont rule out any 19th century batches of kukri made for a particular inlisted men in Gurkha units but have never seen or heard of such items amongst the kukri collecters I know. Has anyone any evidence of any? Sheffield firms including both Rodgers & Beal in particular exploited the Colonial markets in the 19th cenutry but they were all quite fancy items from what I have seen.. I understand from a reliable source there is an Ivory handled Kris at cutlers hall in Sheffield made by Joseph Beal but I havent seen it. If katars were made in England cutlers hall would probably know if they were made in Sheffield. I have never heard of such an item. {not that that means much.} Spiral