Interesting Totokia

Kinikini · 21st November 2014, 02:45 PM

Hi everyone, I have recently joined this forum in order to share pics of Fijian/Tongan clubs that iv'e collected over the past 30 years here in the UK. The first is a very interesting Totokia that has Musket/Pistol shot embedded in the shaft and traces of lead in other areas. The "beak" had previously had a native repair using a wooden dowel that is still in place. Most of the club appears to be stained with blood.The head is just over 5 inches wide and the club is 38 inches from top to bottom.

LJ · 21st November 2014, 10:08 PM

A fascinating club.

I haven't seen any other club with lead shot embedded. I wonder if this was done deliberately by the Fijians (as they embedded teeth, bits of whale ivory etc.) or if a European has blasted it? Also the staining - just playing devil's advocate here, but how do we know it is blood ?

As an aside, one Totokia question has had me puzzled for years. In the film Carry on up the Jungle a hostile tribe (I can't remember the name of the tribe) appears, and they are all carrying totokias. Which of course offends my sense of pedantry, since the film is supposed to be set in Africa! I sometimes wonder where they got them from - and if there is a heap of them still in a corner of the film studios.

Kinikini · 22nd November 2014, 01:00 PM

Thanks for your comment and interest in this club.........I am aware that clubs with lead inlays do exist but these are Not inlays, they really are musket/pistol shot, and here's why...............One of the shot is loose enough to lift up about 10mm but no more because it has "mushroomed" on contact and swollen inside the shaft, just like you would expect to find if you fired a musket ball into a barn door,( the lead has almost liquefied on
impact). The hole its made is as much a dent/crater as a hole. This has not been been drilled and it's not a deformity/knot in the grain, it's been caused by compression/penetration. The other musket ball has also dented the shaft on impact. There are also several other areas of the club that have tiny fragments of lead embedded in the wood that I would say are the result of lead shot hitting the club but at such an angle that they have failed to penetrate like the others and skidded off the wood.
I also doubt if anyone would drill such deep (20-25mm) into the shaft and hammer lead shot into it,as this would have weakened the shaft to the point that it's split.
Finally....Let's imagine that I am right about the Musket balls.......and that the club had been used in a battle against an enemy armed with Muskets and Pistols......Bullets/shot must have been flying everywhere as well as a great deal of blood!!! All the best Kinkini

DaveA · 22nd November 2014, 08:23 PM

Thanks for sharing this. I am extremely fond of ethnographic weapons with a story, even if all the facts might never be known. This one in particular gives a vivid sense of history.

I am imagining the warrior who wielded the club, standing off against powerful invaders (in fairness, he could have been the attacker). Did he have such keen eyes and was he fast enough to block multiple relatively slow shots, perhaps from a distance? Or were these two of many shots that ultimately brought him down?

With the club so severely weakened by the impacts, the fact that it is intact suggests that the owner didn't get a chance to use it afterward. It would likely have shattered. Or if he survived, these events might have made it seem very lucky and he put it away. Either way, it is probably a trophy!

Welcome to the forum and best regards,

Dave A.

David · 22nd November 2014, 11:07 PM

This is an interesting story indeed, though frankly i do find it a big hard to believe that not just one, but two musket balls could hit such a slender piece of wood without shattering it. It would be interesting to so a test with a working musket and a similar piece of wood to see what the damage would loud like. Of course, anything is possible i suppose.

Kinikini · 23rd November 2014, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

Thanks for sharing this. I am extremely fond of ethnographic weapons with a story, even if all the facts might never be known. This one in particular gives a vivid sense of history.

I am imagining the warrior who wielded the club, standing off against powerful invaders (in fairness, he could have been the attacker). Did he have such keen eyes and was he fast enough to block multiple relatively slow shots, perhaps from a distance? Or were these two of many shots that ultimately brought him down?

With the club so severely weakened by the impacts, the fact that it is intact suggests that the owner didn't get a chance to use it afterward. It would likely have shattered. Or if he survived, these events might have made it seem very lucky and he put it away. Either way, it is probably a trophy!

Welcome to the forum and best regards,

Dave A.

I am pleased to read how you have imagined what was going on at the time this brave warrior probably joined his ancestors in the spirit world. Considering the amount of hot lead that must have been flying about at the time and the fact that the shaft has been hit 3 times (2 penetrated 1 didn't) it only stands to reason that the club and it's owner had been subjected to "concentrated" fire from more than one Musket, maybe dozens, in a short space of time. If we look at it logically ....Take a target the same size as a man and draw a Totokia on it being held in front of his chest or (if you want to make it really difficult) above his head........Now fire as many musket balls from various distances as it takes to hit the shaft at least 3 times......I bet you couldn't do it in less than 20 shots....that leaves 17 close misses that would have ripped the rest of the target to pieces, any one of which could have fatally wounded the Warrior. All the best, K

Kinikini · 25th November 2014, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJ

A fascinating club.

I haven't seen any other club with lead shot embedded. I wonder if this was done deliberately by the Fijians (as they embedded teeth, bits of whale ivory etc.) or if a European has blasted it? Also the staining - just playing devil's advocate here, but how do we know it is blood ?

As an aside, one Totokia question has had me puzzled for years. In the film Carry on up the Jungle a hostile tribe (I can't remember the name of the tribe) appears, and they are all carrying totokias. Which of course offends my sense of pedantry, since the film is supposed to be set in Africa! I sometimes wonder where they got them from - and if there is a heap of them still in a corner of the film studios.

Hi, I saw the film several months ago, and I couldn't help but spot the Huge Totokia......and what a Beauty it was!!! I only spotted that one....Cheers K

Kinikini · 22nd November 2014, 05:24 PM

Thanks for your comment and interest in this club.........I am aware that clubs with lead inlays do exist but these are Not inlays, they really are musket/pistol shot, and here's why...............One of the shot is loose enough to lift up about 10mm but no more because it has "mushroomed" on contact and swollen inside the shaft, just like you would expect to find if you fired a musket ball into a barn door,( the lead has almost liquefied on
impact). The hole its made is as much a dent/crater as a hole. This has not been been drilled and it's not a deformity/knot in the grain, it's been caused by compression/penetration. The other musket ball has also dented the shaft on impact. There are also several other areas of the club that have tiny fragments of lead embedded in the wood that I would say are the result of lead shot hitting the club but at such an angle that they have failed to penetrate like the others and skidded off the wood.
I also doubt if anyone would drill such deep (20-25mm) into the shaft and hammer lead shot into it,as this would have weakened the shaft to the point that it's split.
Finally....Let's imagine that I am right about the Musket balls.......and that the club had been used in a battle against an enemy armed with Muskets and Pistols......Bullets/shot must have been flying everywhere as well as a great deal of blood ? All the best Kinkini

LJ · 23rd November 2014, 06:33 PM

That had set me thinking also, then I remembered the photographs of the trees in the WWI battlefields. They had been subjected to high explosives, shrapnel and bullets, and although many branches went the stumps still stood. It reminded me how resiliant wood can be - and I had little doubt that the very tough woods used in West Polynesian clubs would withstand the impact of a musket ball.

However, in my prosaic imagination I imagine somebody firing the balls at a club that was laid down or propped against a wall (rather than fending them off in a fight). There could be reasons to do this other than mere vandalism: to show how the old technology could be "stronger" than the new for instance or in some way to reinforce the mana of the club.

fernando · 25th November 2014, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJ

... However, in my prosaic imagination I imagine somebody firing the balls at a club that was laid down or propped against a wall (rather than fending them off in a fight). There could be reasons to do this other than mere vandalism: to show how the old technology could be "stronger" than the new for instance or in some way to reinforce the mana of the club.

Not so prosaic imagination; makes a lot of sense ... to me, for one !

Kinikini · 25th November 2014, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Not so prosaic imagination; makes a lot of sense ... to me, for one !

I am lost for word's

are you imagining a BATTLE involving dozens of muskets being fired over a period of day's, week's, or even month's where all the clubs had the Magical ability to survive without getting hit by flying lead? Or that the Musketeer's only hit the enemy whilst avoiding the club's on purpose for some reason ?
I would argue that there must have been many that were hit, laying around after most Battles amongst the dead, wounded and their blood waiting to be taken as trophies.
As for the theory about the club being used for target practice......If I were using it for that purpose the first thing I would aim at would be the Head of the club not the shaft........the head of this club has No signs of a direct hit although the beak area seems to have a grey residue around the area it's been broken off so maybe it caught one on the beak. ?
In a situation where the trophy hunter would have had a selection of club's to choose from, why on earth would he have chosen a club that's been used for target practice over the "genuine" trophies of war available ??? Regards K

Kinikini · 25th November 2014, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Not so prosaic imagination; makes a lot of sense ... to me, for one !

I too doubt that any Warrior could have been so skilled or stupid to rely on a 2 inch wide "stick" to shield himself from Musket balls.
I also find it illogical that the club could have been fired at in order to either demonstrate the strength of the club/wood or the power of a Musket or to reinforce the Mana by almost blowing it in half......i'm sure this would have pissed the God's and the club's proud owner right off !!! I presume, that like the battle fields of WW1 there must have been lot's of examples of "bullet's" embedded in the trees around Fijian battle sites that displayed the power of a musket and the density of the wood.. demonstrating the power of the Musket or the club would have been very straight forward........Just go pick a fight with someone...and win !!! All the best K

Kinikini · 25th November 2014, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Not so prosaic imagination; makes a lot of sense ... to me, for one !

Hello again..........Sometime ago I remember reading an old account in which it stated that when the enemy/natives were grouped together and ready to charge, they would be led by the Chief who stood out amongst the others because he was the one armed with a Totokia rather than a club of lower status like the others, and this made him the prime target to aim for, because, if he were killed all the others would cease fighting and retire from the battle due to the loss of their leader.
Now please don't get me wrong, I am not claiming that this IS what happened to the club but you have to admit. it's possible......? All the best K

Kinikini · 25th November 2014, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LJ

That had set me thinking also, then I remembered the photographs of the trees in the WWI battlefields. They had been subjected to high explosives, shrapnel and bullets, and although many branches went the stumps still stood. It reminded me how resiliant wood can be - and I had little doubt that the very tough woods used in West Polynesian clubs would withstand the impact of a musket ball.

However, in my prosaic imagination I imagine somebody firing the balls at a club that was laid down or propped against a wall (rather than fending them off in a fight). There could be reasons to do this other than mere vandalism: to show how the old technology could be "stronger" than the new for instance or in some way to reinforce the mana of the club.

I too doubt that any Warrior could have been so skilled or stupid to rely on a 2 inch wide "stick" to shield himself from Musket balls.
I also find it illogical that the club could have been fired at in order to either demonstrate the strength of the club/wood or the power of a Musket or to reinforce the Mana by almost blowing it in half......i'm sure this would have pissed the God's and the club's proud owner right off !!! I presume, that like the battle fields of WW1 there must have been lot's of examples of "bullet's" embedded in the trees around Fijian battle sites that displayed the power of a musket and the density of the wood.. demonstrating the power of the Musket or the club would have been very straight forward........Just go pick a fight with someone...and win !!! All the best K

21st November 2014, 02:45 PM	#1
Kinikini Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 18	Interesting Totokia Hi everyone, I have recently joined this forum in order to share pics of Fijian/Tongan clubs that iv'e collected over the past 30 years here in the UK. The first is a very interesting Totokia that has Musket/Pistol shot embedded in the shaft and traces of lead in other areas. The "beak" had previously had a native repair using a wooden dowel that is still in place. Most of the club appears to be stained with blood.The head is just over 5 inches wide and the club is 38 inches from top to bottom. Attached Images

22nd November 2014, 01:00 PM	#3
Kinikini Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 18	Interesting Totokia......Musket/Pistol shot.....NOT Inlays !!! Thanks for your comment and interest in this club.........I am aware that clubs with lead inlays do exist but these are Not inlays, they really are musket/pistol shot, and here's why...............One of the shot is loose enough to lift up about 10mm but no more because it has "mushroomed" on contact and swollen inside the shaft, just like you would expect to find if you fired a musket ball into a barn door,( the lead has almost liquefied on impact). The hole its made is as much a dent/crater as a hole. This has not been been drilled and it's not a deformity/knot in the grain, it's been caused by compression/penetration. The other musket ball has also dented the shaft on impact. There are also several other areas of the club that have tiny fragments of lead embedded in the wood that I would say are the result of lead shot hitting the club but at such an angle that they have failed to penetrate like the others and skidded off the wood. I also doubt if anyone would drill such deep (20-25mm) into the shaft and hammer lead shot into it,as this would have weakened the shaft to the point that it's split. Finally....Let's imagine that I am right about the Musket balls.......and that the club had been used in a battle against an enemy armed with Muskets and Pistols......Bullets/shot must have been flying everywhere as well as a great deal of blood!!! All the best Kinkini Attached Images

22nd November 2014, 08:23 PM	#4
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Vivid scene Thanks for sharing this. I am extremely fond of ethnographic weapons with a story, even if all the facts might never be known. This one in particular gives a vivid sense of history. I am imagining the warrior who wielded the club, standing off against powerful invaders (in fairness, he could have been the attacker). Did he have such keen eyes and was he fast enough to block multiple relatively slow shots, perhaps from a distance? Or were these two of many shots that ultimately brought him down? With the club so severely weakened by the impacts, the fact that it is intact suggests that the owner didn't get a chance to use it afterward. It would likely have shattered. Or if he survived, these events might have made it seem very lucky and he put it away. Either way, it is probably a trophy! Welcome to the forum and best regards, Dave A.

22nd November 2014, 05:24 PM	#8
Kinikini Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 18	Interesting Totokia......."Musket" balls NOT inlays Thanks for your comment and interest in this club.........I am aware that clubs with lead inlays do exist but these are Not inlays, they really are musket/pistol shot, and here's why...............One of the shot is loose enough to lift up about 10mm but no more because it has "mushroomed" on contact and swollen inside the shaft, just like you would expect to find if you fired a musket ball into a barn door,( the lead has almost liquefied on impact). The hole its made is as much a dent/crater as a hole. This has not been been drilled and it's not a deformity/knot in the grain, it's been caused by compression/penetration. The other musket ball has also dented the shaft on impact. There are also several other areas of the club that have tiny fragments of lead embedded in the wood that I would say are the result of lead shot hitting the club but at such an angle that they have failed to penetrate like the others and skidded off the wood. I also doubt if anyone would drill such deep (20-25mm) into the shaft and hammer lead shot into it,as this would have weakened the shaft to the point that it's split. Finally....Let's imagine that I am right about the Musket balls.......and that the club had been used in a battle against an enemy armed with Muskets and Pistols......Bullets/shot must have been flying everywhere as well as a great deal of blood ? All the best Kinkini Attached Images

21st November 2014, 10:08 PM	#2
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	A fascinating club. I haven't seen any other club with lead shot embedded. I wonder if this was done deliberately by the Fijians (as they embedded teeth, bits of whale ivory etc.) or if a European has blasted it? Also the staining - just playing devil's advocate here, but how do we know it is blood ? As an aside, one Totokia question has had me puzzled for years. In the film Carry on up the Jungle a hostile tribe (I can't remember the name of the tribe) appears, and they are all carrying totokias. Which of course offends my sense of pedantry, since the film is supposed to be set in Africa! I sometimes wonder where they got them from - and if there is a heap of them still in a corner of the film studios.

22nd November 2014, 11:07 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	This is an interesting story indeed, though frankly i do find it a big hard to believe that not just one, but two musket balls could hit such a slender piece of wood without shattering it. It would be interesting to so a test with a working musket and a similar piece of wood to see what the damage would loud like. Of course, anything is possible i suppose.

23rd November 2014, 06:33 PM	#9
LJ Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 93	That had set me thinking also, then I remembered the photographs of the trees in the WWI battlefields. They had been subjected to high explosives, shrapnel and bullets, and although many branches went the stumps still stood. It reminded me how resiliant wood can be - and I had little doubt that the very tough woods used in West Polynesian clubs would withstand the impact of a musket ball. However, in my prosaic imagination I imagine somebody firing the balls at a club that was laid down or propped against a wall (rather than fending them off in a fight). There could be reasons to do this other than mere vandalism: to show how the old technology could be "stronger" than the new for instance or in some way to reinforce the mana of the club.