Tegha or similar ?

Norman McCormick · 1st November 2008, 07:30 PM

Hi all,
Picked up this item today. I'm not sure how to categorize this sword so help needed. Length 28 inches, blade 23 1/2 inches, blade width at widest 1 7/8 inches. Looks and feels to have some age and not sure whether blade and guard/hilt a later marriage. I have looked for the same blade markings in previous posts, some similar but none exactly the same that I could find. Feels nice in the hand, a kind of Indian Dussack. As usual all thoughts and ideas sought.
Regards,
Norman.
P.S. Blade has a pronounced T spine for approx 17 inches from guard. Sosun ?

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2008, 02:45 AM

This extremely short, heavy bladed sword with old Indian khanda type hilt, is tempting to consider that if ever there were an Indian maritime cutlass, this would be what it would look like. By general appearance it seems that this may likely be a North India Hindu weapon , and while it attempts to classify as the broad, heavy bladed tegha associated with these groups...the tegha has a back curved blade, as do the Islamic sosun pattahs which feature the T section back edge.

The blade has interesting appearance of watering, and the marking is a clear native interpretation of the so called sickle mark that is almost consistantly placed on the blades of paluoars of Afghanistan in this same blade location. It is a somewhat debased version as the dots are inconsistant on the half circles. The stepped choil at the end of the blade reminiscent of the 'Indian ricasso' seems to correspond to many 18th-early 19th century tulwar blades.
The T spine is most unusual, on this type of blade which is like a broad, short tulwar blade, but is quite typical on the edged weapons of Afghanistan such as the choora and Khyber knife (which is actually a heavy short sword).

I would think this heavy short sword has some very interesting possibilities, with the Maratha Hindu style hilt, and the fact that the Marathas were actively involved in European trade which appears to have included some naval activity. This suggests this unusual short sword may actually be maritime, but as far as I know, no maritime cutlass from India has ever been proven specifically, only presumed.

It is noted that the Maratha Raja Sivaji had a favored sword, which was said to be 'Genoan'. The 'sickle' type marking previously described is generally held as originally of Genoan origin (though widely copied). Apparantly Sivaji had a naval commander, Angria (P.Rawson "The Indian Sword", 1968, p.45), which indicates of course the Marathas did have naval forces.

Though the Marathas favored European blades, straight and usually broadsword, and were apparantly not fond of curved blades (Rawson, op.cit. p.45)...this short, slightly curved heavy sword of almost cutlass type might have been ideal for naval use.

This is of course strictly speculation, and I think worthy of further research in this interesting example.

All best regards,
Jim

P.S. Dussacks were often used as naval weapons, and often fell into the 'cutlass' classification.

ward · 2nd November 2008, 03:34 AM

The spike is missing off the pommel and the blade is very short for a khanda hilt so I believe this could be a marriage. I am not saying it did not see use in its current configuration just that originally it was probaly hilted somewhat different. May have been a little longer too

Norman McCormick · 2nd November 2008, 01:06 PM

Hi Ward,
Difficult to know for sure if the spike existed or not certainly the edge is smooth and the hole is filled as is the whole dome which gives a nice counterbalance to the sword. I don't think it has been shortened by much, if at all, to continue the blade on its present curve would, to me, give a blade of very unwieldy and impractical proportions much like some of the Napoleonic British flank officers swords. The blade has been sharpened to take into account the mounting flange so if it is a marriage, as indeed I first thought, it would have to be a very old one maybe even an older hilt on a newer blade. The rivets that connect the flange to the basket appear to have been there a long time.

Hi Jim,
Many thanks as usual for all the information. I agree an unusual piece, an instant attraction for me. It certainly has the feel of a naval 'cutlass' type sword. I suppose when thinking of naval it doesn't need to be the sea, river pirates etc. sprung to my mind, must be the romantic in me. India has vast river complexes that have been used for centuries for trade etc. it is not too fanciful I think to imagine that a pirate or a merchant might find a good use such a sword. The only other thing I can think of is possibly a hunting sword similar to the European hunting hangar. The pirate scenario appeals more though. I hope more forum members will post their ideas. Thanks again for your interest.

Regards to All,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 2nd November 2008, 01:59 PM

Hi Jim,
Do you have any pictorial examples of the Genoan sickle marks.
My Regards,
Norman.

bhushan_lawate · 3rd November 2008, 04:23 AM

Hi all,

Marathas did have a very strong navy presence. So did the Siddhi's (who were originally from Africa and were working under the Mughals)

There are historical accounts of lot of naval wars fought between the forces of British, Portugese, Marathas and Siddhis.

I have personally seen and have had the rare privilege of handling the personal sword of the first Maratha Admiral, Kanhoji Angre (also known as Angria in the British Factory Records).

Interestingly the sword in discussion here is very similar except that the personal sword of Angre has three fullers and a normal tulwar hilt. It also has some star shaped marks on the blade near the spine. It does not have a T shaped back but has a thick spine for reinforcement.

We cannot rule out the possibility of this sword being a naval sword.

Regards,
Bhushan.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/history.htm

P.S.: The Angre descendants are still living off the coast of Mumbai, India on a beach town called Alibaug. It is at their ancestral home in Alibaug the Famous Angre sword sits proudly in the Altar and is worshiped on auspicious days.

Jim McDougall · 3rd November 2008, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
Do you have any pictorial examples of the Genoan sickle marks.
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,
I dont have illustrations handy, but they have been discussed here quite a few times over the years (especially on the early makers trademarks thread now over on European Armoury). These markings have been the subject of considerable debate since the late 19th century, and commonly appear also on Caucasian blades termed 'gurda', as mentioned nearly all Afghan paluoars that I have seen, occasionally on Scottish Andrea Ferara blades, many European blades seen in "Cut and Thrust Weapons" E. Wagner, 1967, and some others.

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 3rd November 2008, 03:30 PM

Hi Bhushan,
Thanks for your input and the info, a very interesting site. Here is, I hope, a few better photos, one with a late 18th Century British cutlass blade for comparison.
Regards,
Norman.

1st November 2008, 07:30 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,592	Tegha or similar ? Hi all, Picked up this item today. I'm not sure how to categorize this sword so help needed. Length 28 inches, blade 23 1/2 inches, blade width at widest 1 7/8 inches. Looks and feels to have some age and not sure whether blade and guard/hilt a later marriage. I have looked for the same blade markings in previous posts, some similar but none exactly the same that I could find. Feels nice in the hand, a kind of Indian Dussack. As usual all thoughts and ideas sought. Regards, Norman. P.S. Blade has a pronounced T spine for approx 17 inches from guard. Sosun ? Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 1st November 2008 at 10:15 PM. Reason: Additions

2nd November 2008, 02:45 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	This extremely short, heavy bladed sword with old Indian khanda type hilt, is tempting to consider that if ever there were an Indian maritime cutlass, this would be what it would look like. By general appearance it seems that this may likely be a North India Hindu weapon , and while it attempts to classify as the broad, heavy bladed tegha associated with these groups...the tegha has a back curved blade, as do the Islamic sosun pattahs which feature the T section back edge. The blade has interesting appearance of watering, and the marking is a clear native interpretation of the so called sickle mark that is almost consistantly placed on the blades of paluoars of Afghanistan in this same blade location. It is a somewhat debased version as the dots are inconsistant on the half circles. The stepped choil at the end of the blade reminiscent of the 'Indian ricasso' seems to correspond to many 18th-early 19th century tulwar blades. The T spine is most unusual, on this type of blade which is like a broad, short tulwar blade, but is quite typical on the edged weapons of Afghanistan such as the choora and Khyber knife (which is actually a heavy short sword). I would think this heavy short sword has some very interesting possibilities, with the Maratha Hindu style hilt, and the fact that the Marathas were actively involved in European trade which appears to have included some naval activity. This suggests this unusual short sword may actually be maritime, but as far as I know, no maritime cutlass from India has ever been proven specifically, only presumed. It is noted that the Maratha Raja Sivaji had a favored sword, which was said to be 'Genoan'. The 'sickle' type marking previously described is generally held as originally of Genoan origin (though widely copied). Apparantly Sivaji had a naval commander, Angria (P.Rawson "The Indian Sword", 1968, p.45), which indicates of course the Marathas did have naval forces. Though the Marathas favored European blades, straight and usually broadsword, and were apparantly not fond of curved blades (Rawson, op.cit. p.45)...this short, slightly curved heavy sword of almost cutlass type might have been ideal for naval use. This is of course strictly speculation, and I think worthy of further research in this interesting example. All best regards, Jim P.S. Dussacks were often used as naval weapons, and often fell into the 'cutlass' classification. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd November 2008 at 02:55 AM.

2nd November 2008, 03:34 AM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	The spike is missing off the pommel and the blade is very short for a khanda hilt so I believe this could be a marriage. I am not saying it did not see use in its current configuration just that originally it was probaly hilted somewhat different. May have been a little longer too Last edited by ward; 2nd November 2008 at 04:18 AM.

3rd November 2008, 03:30 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,592	Hi Bhushan, Thanks for your input and the info, a very interesting site. Here is, I hope, a few better photos, one with a late 18th Century British cutlass blade for comparison. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

2nd November 2008, 01:06 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,592	Hi Ward, Difficult to know for sure if the spike existed or not certainly the edge is smooth and the hole is filled as is the whole dome which gives a nice counterbalance to the sword. I don't think it has been shortened by much, if at all, to continue the blade on its present curve would, to me, give a blade of very unwieldy and impractical proportions much like some of the Napoleonic British flank officers swords. The blade has been sharpened to take into account the mounting flange so if it is a marriage, as indeed I first thought, it would have to be a very old one maybe even an older hilt on a newer blade. The rivets that connect the flange to the basket appear to have been there a long time. Hi Jim, Many thanks as usual for all the information. I agree an unusual piece, an instant attraction for me. It certainly has the feel of a naval 'cutlass' type sword. I suppose when thinking of naval it doesn't need to be the sea, river pirates etc. sprung to my mind, must be the romantic in me. India has vast river complexes that have been used for centuries for trade etc. it is not too fanciful I think to imagine that a pirate or a merchant might find a good use such a sword. The only other thing I can think of is possibly a hunting sword similar to the European hunting hangar. The pirate scenario appeals more though. I hope more forum members will post their ideas. Thanks again for your interest. Regards to All, Norman.

2nd November 2008, 01:59 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,592	Hi Jim, Do you have any pictorial examples of the Genoan sickle marks. My Regards, Norman.

3rd November 2008, 04:23 AM	#6
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi all, Marathas did have a very strong navy presence. So did the Siddhi's (who were originally from Africa and were working under the Mughals) There are historical accounts of lot of naval wars fought between the forces of British, Portugese, Marathas and Siddhis. I have personally seen and have had the rare privilege of handling the personal sword of the first Maratha Admiral, Kanhoji Angre (also known as Angria in the British Factory Records). Interestingly the sword in discussion here is very similar except that the personal sword of Angre has three fullers and a normal tulwar hilt. It also has some star shaped marks on the blade near the spine. It does not have a T shaped back but has a thick spine for reinforcement. We cannot rule out the possibility of this sword being a naval sword. Regards, Bhushan. http://indiannavy.nic.in/history.htm P.S.: The Angre descendants are still living off the coast of Mumbai, India on a beach town called Alibaug. It is at their ancestral home in Alibaug the Famous Angre sword sits proudly in the Altar and is worshiped on auspicious days.