Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 17th October 2009, 08:00 AM   #1
Cathey
Member
 
Cathey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 282
Default PATA GAUNTLET SWORD

Hi guys

PATA GAUNTLET SWORD

Nationality Southern India Marathas
Dimensions Blade 89cm 35.2”, Gauntlet 30 cm 11 ¾ “, Settings 11cm. Overall Length 180.8 Cm 46 ¾ “.

PATA; GAUNTLET SWORD consists of a combination of a wide double-edged blade with short central fuller and a gauntlet. A pair of metal settings heavily decorated with flowers and scrolls attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The Steel gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap attached by hinges that hooks around the arm also showing signs of gilt decoration. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade. The outside of the steel gauntlet is very ornately decorated with flowers and scrolls heavily gilded.

Most of my collection is European; however I have a weakness for Pata’s as they are such a visually spectacular weapon. This is one of three in my collection. Whilst I have a large library there is not a lot written about this weapon and I am posting it to elicit the thoughts of others.


Cheers Cathey
Attached Images
    
Cathey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2009, 08:05 AM   #2
KuKulzA28
Member
 
KuKulzA28's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: between work and sleep
Posts: 731
Default

Rubbish, I'll dispose of it safety for you if you PM me!

I don't know much, but it seems like this is not an ordinary pata... seems too classy, with just the right touch of decor. That being said, the pata wasn't exactly the most common weapon to begin with. All I can say is, that is amazing, and I hope collectors like you will take great care of these kinds of artifacts.

Now, may the gurus and buffs speak up!
KuKulzA28 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th October 2009, 01:18 PM   #3
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Its an absolute beauty Cathey.
Nice mix of chiseled decoration and koftgari, lovely form to the gauntlet, even a European look in some respects, especially to the upper part.
The blade seems rather 'plain' compared to the grandure of the rest, but of course that is where you want function over form, and you'd certainly get a good 'slash' with it when charging down your foes!
Any markings on the blade? Wanna share some close-ups of the steel?
A very fine example.

Regards
Gene
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2009, 02:08 AM   #4
Aleksey G.
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 70
Default

Cathey,
Hello, I totally join Atlantia in this, please post the clear close ups of the steel, also look closer at the steel, not only the blade but the hand protective part, those open steel areas with borders adorned by some chisel and gold work might be wootz damascus.... if you have an etchan solution (ferric chloride) try to etch a small area.

A beauty....
Alex

Last edited by Aleksey G.; 18th October 2009 at 01:35 PM.
Aleksey G. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2009, 04:23 AM   #5
Jim McDougall
Arms Historian
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 9,940
Default

An absolutely superb example of pata, Cathey!!!
These indeed are not at all a common weapon, and thier origin as a weapon form the source of lively debate for many years. It does seem generally held that the gauntlet sword did originate probably from the transverse gripped daggers known as 'katars' and in Mahratta regions, believed about 16th century.

This example seems to be likely of 17th century, possibly early 18th, and the blade probably European, resembling arming sword blades of this period.
The reason the pata is relatively uncommon is that they were a weapon used primarily by swordsmen of tremendous skill, and unpopular with the larger rank and file.
The steel, koftgari and floral motif on this suggest an individual of considerable station, and such persons or officers were most likely to have had a weapon of this quality, especially a pata.

It should be noted that while these did originate with the Mahratta, they became known among Mughal sultanates in the Deccan in some degree, as far east as Tanjore where they are extremely well represented, and to the north with Rajputs and Sikhs, in addition to the original western regions of the Mahrattas.

It would be interesting to compare the floral motif with similar on tulwars, which might reveal this could quite possibly be either Mughal from the Deccan or possibly Rajput, as well as Mahratta.

Excellent example!!!

Best regards,
Jim
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2009, 10:29 PM   #6
Cathey
Member
 
Cathey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: adelaide south australia
Posts: 282
Default

Hi Gene, Alex and Jim

Firstly what is ferric chloride?

The blade is plain, as they are on most Pata’s I have seen. Generally Pata’s have European blades so and this one looks typically European broad sword to me. I will try and load so close ups of the metal, but I don’t think it will tell you much.

The Information I have found on the Pata to date is:

The Pata is a single-handed Indian gauntlet sword. This sword was predominantly found in the southern regions of India. The Marathas invented the Pata, and it was their most favoured weapon. The Pata consists of a combination of a long double-edged blade and a gauntlet. The blade is usually European, Italian or Spanish. A pair of metal settings attaches the blade to the hilt of a gauntlet. These settings run down the face of the blade on both sides. The gauntlet covers the arm almost up to the elbow. The gauntlet has an iron strap hinged to the upper end that hooks around the arm. The grip is located inside the gauntlet, at a right angle to the blade.

The inside of the gauntlet is often padded to reinforce the grip and to reduce the shock of blows. The outside of the gauntlet is often covered with metal-worked decorations or embossed. A few were even studded with jewels. Some of the decorations depicted battle scenes. Others had prayers, or pictures of gods or large animals on them.

The patta was used by all military classes, particularly by experienced swordsmen. For one who is inexperienced with the patta it can be difficult to use but it is the most effective of all Indian swords. It is wielded by the strong muscles of the fore and upper arm, and not by the wrist. This allows the sword to deliver more powerful blows and thrusts at any angle. This method also greatly reduces the amount of fatigue, due to the use of the upper arm muscles (Rawson 46).

References:
Christie’s 16/7/03 Lot 19.
Pant, G.N. Indian Arms and Armour Volume II. New Delhi, S. Attar Singh Army Educational Stores. 1980. Pgs. 61-68
Rawson, P. S. The Indian Sword. London: Herbert Jenkins 1968. Pgs. 44-47
STONE, George Cameron, A Glossary Of The Construction, Decoration & Use Of Arms & Armour In All Countries And In All Times Pp 484-486
Wallis & Wallis Sale 458, 28/8/02 Lot 1122 Plate 12 Pp36
WELAND, Gerald A Collector's Guide To Swords, Daggers & Cutlasses PP107-108

Cheers Cathey
Attached Images
 
Cathey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st July 2016, 01:43 PM   #7
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
Default

Hi Cathey,
Have you had time to photograph you other pata's:-)??
Have a look here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21717

Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 31st July 2016 at 02:35 PM.
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2016, 11:32 AM   #8
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Personal advise: go on Amazon and get a bottle of Nital, 2% nitric acid in methanol. Infinitely superior to ferric chloride for etching. It does not leave a yucky brown discoloration.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2016, 12:53 PM   #9
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
Default

Ariel, glad you added that it should be 2% :-).
Have a look here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nital
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st August 2016, 02:19 PM   #10
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,903
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Personal advise: go on Amazon and get a bottle of Nital, 2% nitric acid in methanol. Infinitely superior to ferric chloride for etching. It does not leave a yucky brown discoloration.
Yes indeed, Nital is way better than ferric chloride. It is not as messy and gives a nice dark patina, depending on the quality of the wootz.

I have experimented with various concentrations of Nital, between 2-5% and 2% is a little two weak for good results. For quality, high contrast wootz 3% would be enough but would require more applications. 4% would be ideal for most wootz but you must dilute it yourself as I didn't find Nital 4% commercially available. 5% is rather strong and may leave some golden taint, but sometimes is necessary for low contrast wootz.

In order to reveal the structure, the blade must be polished to grit 2000-3000 for best results.

However, I never saw a Pata with wootz blade so I am not sure it would be worth the effort. Maybe should do a test first.

Can anybody please post some photos with Pata swords with wootz blades?!


Last edited by mariusgmioc; 1st August 2016 at 02:40 PM.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th January 2017, 03:43 PM   #11
Jens Nordlunde
Member
 
Jens Nordlunde's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Europe
Posts: 2,718
Default

Marius,

The gauntlet is of wootz, but the blade is Indian and pattern welded.
North India 17th to early 18th century.
Attached Images
     
Jens Nordlunde is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2020, 05:45 PM   #12
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 207
Default

Hi everybody !
Such good and nice exemple ! I loved them both (Jens and Cathey)!
The day you want to part with, you can surely send a pm hahaha !
What is asthonishing is the length of Cathey one. 180cm is huge !
I was thinking the length was more between 120-130cm ? I'm wrong?

But really, thanks for the eyes pleasure


Have a great day all,
Julien
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th May 2020, 08:46 PM   #13
kai
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,254
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathey
Dimensions Blade 89cm 35.2”, Gauntlet 30 cm 11 ¾ “, Settings 11cm. Overall Length 180.8 Cm 46 ¾ “.
Must be a mess-up: Probably 118.8 cm!

Regards,
Kai
kai is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th May 2020, 05:45 PM   #14
JBG163
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: France
Posts: 207
Default

Thanks Kai ! I looked at the proportion and if the total length was 180, it seems that the forearm of the guy was huge hahaha !
I'm really in love with that kind of sword...
What are the criteria for a good pata sword ? I think that avoiding bronze gauntlet is a good thing (hard to imagine that it could resist to a powerfull blow without moving). But is it "big" point to check ?
Thanks in advance !
Julien
JBG163 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2020, 08:30 AM   #15
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Pata was a popular weapon of the irregular Maratha cavalry. Their usual tactics was a mass attack, a couple of slashes and a quick retreat. Stabbing was not a part of the “menu”:-) That’s why their blades were bendable. I have seen several with stiff , often European, blades. But those were an exception.

Southern India had Urumi, a belt sword and some Caucasian shashkas were kept
bent into a circle within a sieve. Those were the ultimate examples of a weapon culture that preferred slashing over stabbing.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.