Rode the 600

Tim Simmons · 5th November 2008, 05:44 PM

Thought this might be mildly interesting. From UK national. The chap pop off 1920.

Sure Jim will enjoy reading.

Jim McDougall · 5th November 2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thought this might be mildly interesting. From UK national. The chap pop off 1920.

Sure Jim will enjoy reading.

WOW!!! Tim you know me way too well

In my earliest years of collecting, I was compelled to British cavalry sabres as my obsession with "The Charge of the Light Brigade" seemed to dominate every thought. I do remember this mans name in the accounts and records I read.
It is such a tragedy of not only this terribly misbegotten charge and the brave men who died simply following orders, but that, as in the case of Mr. Olley, he was forgotten by the military and those he served and reduced to poverty. It is altogether too common a thing, and something I regret to say I have seen firsthand. Having said that, I dont want to begin an editorial here, just thought it applied to the article and hope others perceive it as cause for remembrance.

Thank you so much for sharing this Tim!
As always, it would be fascinating to see some examples of the swords carried by the 'Gallant Six Hundred" and the words of Tennyson are still emblazoned in my head!!

Anybody out there got the British M1829 light cavalry sabre, carried by the famed Light Brigade? Also, it is known that a few of the M1853 cavalry sabres may have made it into this battle at Balaklava, though the issuance and full replacement hadn't been completed by October 1854.

Excellent Tim! Thank you again,
All the best,
Jim

Bill M · 6th November 2008, 01:50 PM

French Marshal Pierre Bosquet, "C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre." ("It is magnificent, but it is not war.") Rarely quoted, but he continued: "C'est de la folie"- "it is madness."

To me, war continues as man's greatest moment, or man's greatest folly. Maybe it depends on whether you are a general or a private.

David R · 28th May 2014, 09:40 PM

I know this is an old thread, but I came across it while trawling the site and thought it worth putting some things in perspective. A friend of mine is a big enthusiast of British cavalry, and acknowledged to be knowledgeable on the subject, and had this to say.....
After the charge the unit was still "tactical" as in was ready and able to go again.
By Napoleonic standards the casualties were acceptable.....
The result, that British Cavalry had supremacy for the rest of the campaign ( the Russians would not give battle to British Cavalry for the rest of the war) was one that Wellington would have given his eye teeth for!
The real problem was that the British Press hated Lord Cardigan!

Ken Maddock · 28th May 2014, 09:56 PM

Hi
looking at the thread above
I don't think there was

"a British M1829 light cavalry sabre, carried by the famed Light Brigade", as quoted by Jim

I am fairly certain it was a British M1821 light cavalry sabre, I have one somewhere which i will try and photo
regards
Ken

Jim McDougall · 29th May 2014, 08:08 AM

Ken, thank you for the correction, and it is indeed properly the M1821.
My original research on this event and these swords goes back to the late 1970s into 1980s and there was a great deal of complexity on these sword patterns in existing literature.

Much of this evolved with reference to the production of the M1821 light cavalry sabre as well as the M1821 Heavy cavalry sabre (with iron bowl guard ).Apparently the light cavalry sabres began in 1823, but was interrupted in 1825, at least at Enfield. Robson (p.29) states by this time about 6000 were made but it is unclear if this was the entire number (there were up to 18 contractors making them so this seems unusual).

Complaints on both sword types persisted, and production of the heavy cavalry M1821 which had begun in 1825 ceased in 1827, with both models being brought to review in 1828.

In Robson (p.179) it is footnoted with reference to the M1821 light cavalry sabre that "..the sword is sometimes referred to as the '1830 pattern' based on the statement by C.J.Ffoulkes and E..Hopkinson in "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" (p.48). It is an error deriving from a confusion between the date when the pattern was actually approved and the period when first service issues were made"
The first issues were made in 1824, but it would appear that the 'approval' must have referred to results of the July 2, 1828 board which resumed production on these swords. Further improvements to the 'light' model were suggested in 1833, and Robson (p.30) notes large numbers were then on hand.

In 1835, an order for another 1000 heavy cavalry swords issued, and by this time 1500 of original batch of 2138 produced were issued. These presumably were of the 1825 order which ceased in 1827.

It seems I had seen references where these two models were referred to as either M1821 or M1829 or in more recent times M1821/29 due to these production and complaint issues, and referring to the dual 'start' times for them.

As a collector of British swords back then, I recall the M1821 light cavalry sabre was fairly easy to find (I had several) but the M1821'heavy' ....that was tough!!! I had one of the regular model, and another which had been refitted with lighter and rebated blade for practice use.

An even more complex matter, and with remarkable new findings, is the number of the newly issued M1853 pattern swords which were actually present in this famed charge. There were apparently a good number more than originally thought, and I believe some of the heavy cavalry had them as well (these were universal to both rather than light and heavy).

David, thank you for bringing up this thread. Your friend is of course technically correct.....the brigade itself despite being terribly decimated was in effect 'ready to go again'...and narrations note groups of troopers who stated they were ready...to which Cardigan declined. It would have been difficult however as they were scattered about and regrouping what viable forces remained would have been futile in my opinion.

This is much the same case with the also famed charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo, where though there were disastrous casualties, the greatest issue was the disassembly of the riders to where regrouping and further combat was rendered nearly impossible effectively .

As always, these kinds of events were certainly far different in reality than characterized in literature, poems, and of course movies. Still, the heroism of the men who fought these battles cannot be discounted.

As I said six years ago

it would indeed be great to see some examples of the swords of this famed battle, or that is, of the types used.

5th November 2008, 05:44 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Rode the 600 Thought this might be mildly interesting. From UK national. The chap pop off 1920. Sure Jim will enjoy reading. Attached Images

28th May 2014, 09:40 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	600 I know this is an old thread, but I came across it while trawling the site and thought it worth putting some things in perspective. A friend of mine is a big enthusiast of British cavalry, and acknowledged to be knowledgeable on the subject, and had this to say..... After the charge the unit was still "tactical" as in was ready and able to go again. By Napoleonic standards the casualties were acceptable..... The result, that British Cavalry had supremacy for the rest of the campaign ( the Russians would not give battle to British Cavalry for the rest of the war) was one that Wellington would have given his eye teeth for! The real problem was that the British Press hated Lord Cardigan!

6th November 2008, 01:50 PM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	French Marshal Pierre Bosquet, "C'est magnifique, mais ce n'est pas la guerre." ("It is magnificent, but it is not war.") Rarely quoted, but he continued: "C'est de la folie"- "it is madness." To me, war continues as man's greatest moment, or man's greatest folly. Maybe it depends on whether you are a general or a private.

28th May 2014, 09:56 PM	#5
Ken Maddock Member Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Ireland Posts: 104	Hi looking at the thread above I don't think there was "a British M1829 light cavalry sabre, carried by the famed Light Brigade", as quoted by Jim I am fairly certain it was a British M1821 light cavalry sabre, I have one somewhere which i will try and photo regards Ken

29th May 2014, 08:08 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Ken, thank you for the correction, and it is indeed properly the M1821. My original research on this event and these swords goes back to the late 1970s into 1980s and there was a great deal of complexity on these sword patterns in existing literature. Much of this evolved with reference to the production of the M1821 light cavalry sabre as well as the M1821 Heavy cavalry sabre (with iron bowl guard ).Apparently the light cavalry sabres began in 1823, but was interrupted in 1825, at least at Enfield. Robson (p.29) states by this time about 6000 were made but it is unclear if this was the entire number (there were up to 18 contractors making them so this seems unusual). Complaints on both sword types persisted, and production of the heavy cavalry M1821 which had begun in 1825 ceased in 1827, with both models being brought to review in 1828. In Robson (p.179) it is footnoted with reference to the M1821 light cavalry sabre that "..the sword is sometimes referred to as the '1830 pattern' based on the statement by C.J.Ffoulkes and E..Hopkinson in "Sword, Lance and Bayonet" (p.48). It is an error deriving from a confusion between the date when the pattern was actually approved and the period when first service issues were made" The first issues were made in 1824, but it would appear that the 'approval' must have referred to results of the July 2, 1828 board which resumed production on these swords. Further improvements to the 'light' model were suggested in 1833, and Robson (p.30) notes large numbers were then on hand. In 1835, an order for another 1000 heavy cavalry swords issued, and by this time 1500 of original batch of 2138 produced were issued. These presumably were of the 1825 order which ceased in 1827. It seems I had seen references where these two models were referred to as either M1821 or M1829 or in more recent times M1821/29 due to these production and complaint issues, and referring to the dual 'start' times for them. As a collector of British swords back then, I recall the M1821 light cavalry sabre was fairly easy to find (I had several) but the M1821'heavy' ....that was tough!!! I had one of the regular model, and another which had been refitted with lighter and rebated blade for practice use. An even more complex matter, and with remarkable new findings, is the number of the newly issued M1853 pattern swords which were actually present in this famed charge. There were apparently a good number more than originally thought, and I believe some of the heavy cavalry had them as well (these were universal to both rather than light and heavy). David, thank you for bringing up this thread. Your friend is of course technically correct.....the brigade itself despite being terribly decimated was in effect 'ready to go again'...and narrations note groups of troopers who stated they were ready...to which Cardigan declined. It would have been difficult however as they were scattered about and regrouping what viable forces remained would have been futile in my opinion. This is much the same case with the also famed charge of the Royal Scots Greys at Waterloo, where though there were disastrous casualties, the greatest issue was the disassembly of the riders to where regrouping and further combat was rendered nearly impossible effectively . As always, these kinds of events were certainly far different in reality than characterized in literature, poems, and of course movies. Still, the heroism of the men who fought these battles cannot be discounted. As I said six years ago it would indeed be great to see some examples of the swords of this famed battle, or that is, of the types used.