What is a KARUD?!

[mariusgmioc]

Hello,

As far as I know, this word does not exist in any of the languages of the people who use the knife associated with it, and it is most likely a misnomer derived from the word "Kard" (meaning knife).

However, I have encountered this term on several occasions associated with a straight Pesh-kabz.

Is it a "correct" or better said accepted term for differentiating between a recurved Pesh-kabz and a straight one?

Is it more than simply a straight Pesh-kabz?

Regards,

Marius

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,


Is it more than simply a straight Pesh-kabz?

Regards,

Marius

Hi Marius,
I will say the same, straight with a strong flat back, one edged. But it's far from my area...
Best, Kubur

[mahratt]

For those who are really interested in this issue is an article on this topic. After reading it one can make for yourself an opinion.

For those who are really interested in this issue is an article on this topic: http://historical-weapons.com/questi...ce-term-karud/

After reading it one can make for yourself an opinion.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by mahratt

For those who are really interested in this issue is an article on this topic. After reading it one can make for yourself an opinion.

For those who are really interested in this issue is an article on this topic: http://historical-weapons.com/questi...ce-term-karud/

After reading it one can make for yourself an opinion.

Thank you very much for the link!

This article would address exactly my questio but unfortunately, I could not find the article but only the abstract (which is quite interesting in itself as it concludes the term Karud exists and is correctly used to describe a straight Peshkabz).

However, I would be interested to read the arguments that led to this conclusion, as it may be based on some historical records that were flawed in the first place.

In other words, starting with flawed original information one will certainly end up with a flawed conclusion. And a flawed conclusion may easily end up being considered as the reference truth, providing it is vehiculated and publicized long enough.

Another issue is whether we should use or not a term in order to be more specific, whether that term is linguistically/historically correct or not?!

Regards,

Marius

[mahratt]

As long as the article is published only in Russian. But, sure to be a variant of the English language.

And anyone interested in the matter, will be able to verify whether that term is linguistically/historically correct or not

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Mariusgmioc, Looking at your other thread on the subject you are probably at the front end in this specialty, however, I spent some time in Kabul and couldn't get anywhere with Karud or Kard and like many names they don't light the blue touch paper when mentioned...it seems. This is not unusual as across the spectrum there is a lot of confusion in names of weapons especially those applied by world sword collectors which was apparently as infuriating to the old masters when concocting books about swords in the 19th C as it is now! Thus the question falls into the area of "whats in a word" for which there may be no answer.

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Mariusgmioc, Looking at your other thread on the subject you are probably at the front end in this specialty, however, I spent some time in Kabul and couldn't get anywhere with Karud or Kard and like many names they don't light the blue touch paper when mentioned...it seems. This is not unusual as across the spectrum there is a lot of confusion in names of weapons especially those applied by world sword collectors which was apparently as infuriating to the old masters when concocting books about swords in the 19th C as it is now! Thus the question falls into the area of "whats in a word" for which there may be no answer.

Precisely my point!

The word "kard" is of Persian origin and simply means knife. It has become to be associated with the rather typical single edged straight triangular blade of triangular cross-section knife, of Persian origin.

Like the word "bicaq" (c with a "," underneath) means also "knife and has become associated with the typical Ottoman knife similar to a Kard, but with a slightly curved up edge towards the tip and and specifically shaped rear quillon (somehow similar to a hawk's bill, or a Yatagan hilt).

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

Hello,

As far as I know, this word does not exist in any of the languages of the people who use the knife associated with it, and it is most likely a misnomer derived from the word "Kard" (meaning knife).

However, I have encountered this term on several occasions associated with a straight Pesh-kabz.

Is it a "correct" or better said accepted term for differentiating between a recurved Pesh-kabz and a straight one?

Is it more than simply a straight Pesh-kabz?

Regards,

Marius

We actually have no real proof that the term "karud" was not used by any of the people associated with it, you would have to study Persian, Afghan, and Indian sources throughly, even then the evidence may not have been written down etc. There is no proof that I know of that "karud" is a mistaken use of the term "kard", just one of several theories.

As far as I am concerned, if the term is good enough for Artzi then it is good enough for me. You have to use some term to differentiate between the two similar but substantially different forms (straight blade and curved blade).

[ariel]

Eric,

This approach is fine if we accept terms "Khyber knife or Salawar Yataghan" as an authentic name for Selaawa (or whatever other phonetic rendition to define an Afghani short sword of a characteristic form). Or using " Pulwar" to designate an Afghani version of Tulwar with a specific handle instead of a locally-used "Shamshir". Stenography has its uses and charms.

Just like you, I am also not particularly bothered by the usage of "Karud", as long as I remember that the best title for an article about it would be " Karud: a Comedy of Errors"

The "name game" is a fertile ground for pseudo-discoveries , especially if it is based on attempted phonetizations of foreign words. Professor Higgins, just like Henry Moser, never visited Afghanistan:-)

[estcrh]

Originally Posted by ariel

Eric,

This approach is fine if we accept terms "Khyber knife or Salawar Yataghan" as an authentic name for Selaawa (or whatever other phonetic rendition to define an Afghani short sword of a characteristic form). Or using " Pulwar" to designate an Afghani version of Tulwar with a specific handle instead of a locally-used "Shamshir". Stenography has its uses and charms.

Just like you, I am also not particularly bothered by the usage of "Karud", as long as I remember that the best title for an article about it would be " Karud: a Comedy of Errors"

The "name game" is a fertile ground for pseudo-discoveries , especially if it is based on attempted phonetizations of foreign words. Professor Higgins, just like Henry Moser, never visited Afghanistan:-)

Ariel, I do not think we have to accept any of the currently used names as being "authentic", but we do need some commonly accepted terms, if not "karud" for the straight bladed relative of the pesh then what? Same for the khyber knife, khanjar, jambiya, kard etc.

When someone that I know tells me they have a "karud" I understand what they are describing, that is useful to me, were and when this name came into use is a secondary question and it is very interesting to delve into this subject but we do need descriptive terms that the majority of interested people can agree on. On another note, people who speak English as a primary language often use terms that are different than people who speak another language such as German or Italian etc.

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by estcrh

Ariel, I do not think we have to accept any of the currently used names as being "authentic", but we do need some commonly accepted terms, if not "karud" for the straight bladed relative of the pesh then what? Same for the khyber knife, khanjar, jambiya, kard etc.

When someone that I know tells me they have a "karud" I understand what they are describing, that is useful to me, were and when this name came into use is a secondary question and it is very interesting to delve into this subject but we do need descriptive terms that the majority of interested people can agree on. On another note, people who speak English as a primary language often use terms that are different than people who speak another language such as German or Italian etc.

Absolutely right, estcrh

[mariusgmioc]

Yes, it makes perfect sense to use a term that is commonly accepted in order to define an object.

I agree that when refering to a Pesh-kabz there is more ambiguity about the type of dagger we are talking about. Is it recurved, is it straight, does it have single edge or double false edge, etc. Yet when we say Choora, for example everybody knows exactly what type of Pesh-kabz we are talking about.

So KARUD it is!

Maybe for you guys it was trivial, but for me was interesting and educative! Thank you for your comments.

I still would love to read the whole article Mahratt send us the link to, as I bet it is very interesting. I was wondering wheteher we can access somehow the Russian version and Google translate it?!


PS: Can we assume that the Choora is a particular type of Karud (with aparticularly shaped hilt and generally metal front bolster)?

[mahratt]

It's funny when people had the opportunity to read your article (in Russian) mentions some facts, but "forgets" to others. More slightly and respected Ariel begins to say that Alexander Burnes never visited Afghanistan (I give in article link to its word.)

I think it is worth to wait for the article in English, so that everyone can make about the article his unbiased opinion and decide whether one and would it term (name) correct in respect the "curved" and "direct" *