Interesting African dagger. Unusual Shona?

zalmoxis · 12th August 2005, 04:23 AM

Hi everybody! I am new here! I posted on swap but I did not introduce myself. I collect African weapons and I have good pieces. A lot of spears in my collection Congo mainly. I was watching the forum but I never posted before. But this one deserves a look.

This one has the wire work on the handle Shona style also he blade looks like a Shona. But the scabbard and the hilt shape does not look like any I have seen. Snake skin on a Shona scabbard? It might be a neighboring tribe? I am lost with this one. I would appreciate input. It has a museum mark that use to say AFRICA MRS EDGELL HUNT COLL. LWRNC 1898 P. 355806.

VANDOO · 12th August 2005, 05:05 AM

I WOULD SAY IT IS PROBABLY A OLDER SHONA SHORT SWORD OR KNIFE. ESPECIALLY IF IT HAS THE ODD OFFSET CENTER RIDGE COMMONLY FOUND ON SHONA KNIVES (I HAVENE'T SEEN THAT FEATURE ON OTHER TRIBES WEAPONS) THE HANDLE IS A BIT DIFFERENT THAN THE NORM BUT THERE IS SOMETHING SIMULAR ON PAGE 135 OF "AFRICAN ARMS AND ARMOR" BY CHRISTOPHER SPRING. THE ONE PICTURED THERE EVEN HAS A SORT OF CRUDE GARD. THE SCABBARD APPEARS TO BE COVERED WITH MONOTOR LIZZARD SKIN CAN'T BE SURE FROM THOSE PICTURES. ITS A NICE LOOKING ITEM

zalmoxis · 12th August 2005, 05:39 AM

It does not have the offset center ridge. It is diamond shaped.This was another unusual thing about this one. Plus it has a small section between the blade an hilt where the maker add markings, also unseen on Shona. I will take some other pictures tomorrow.

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2005, 09:34 AM

I saw this on ebay, I do not think it Shona, more central Africa like Zande or Mangbetu. The seller said it had some damage, I can not see it except the lizard skin. Great knife! Tim

Flavio · 12th August 2005, 02:37 PM

Hello Guys! Zalmoxis very beautiful knife. Seems to me an enigma: the scabbard seems similar to the fa fang scabbard, with snake skin; the blade is quite sure shona and the handle seems quite similar to the one of western africa maybe manding!

Tim Simmons · 12th August 2005, 07:58 PM

The scabbard does look very much like those of the Fang but I still say the blade is central African and certainly not Shona. The bar section forte is very C Africa, Zande/ Mangbetu. Could this have come from people to the east of the Fang and to the west of Zande border areas where forms could mix. Tim

Freddy · 12th August 2005, 08:16 PM

The scabbard and handle are atypical and a bit of a puzzle to me. Diamond shaped blades can also be found with the Shi or Tutsi.

Probably a mixture of different styles as mentioned by the other forum members. Good blades were traded all over Africa.

Isn't it possible to trace the origin of this knife. It was surely part of some museum's collection. You should try to find out more.

Anyway, I like it. It's beautiful and complete.

zalmoxis · 12th August 2005, 09:17 PM

Very sharp eye about the Fang. I think that you are right and the scabbard is Fang. What about the wirework? It looks Shona or Northern Nguni.I have not seen a weapon from Congo with wirework. Blade looks like Shi people a litlle bit.

Flavio · 13th August 2005, 01:18 AM

Another example, nearly identical to the one of zalmoxis, of fang scabbard and knife (the scabbard is covered with snake skin) from Spring.

12th August 2005, 04:23 AM	#1
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	Interesting African dagger. Unusual Shona? Hi everybody! I am new here! I posted on swap but I did not introduce myself. I collect African weapons and I have good pieces. A lot of spears in my collection Congo mainly. I was watching the forum but I never posted before. But this one deserves a look. This one has the wire work on the handle Shona style also he blade looks like a Shona. But the scabbard and the hilt shape does not look like any I have seen. Snake skin on a Shona scabbard? It might be a neighboring tribe? I am lost with this one. I would appreciate input. It has a museum mark that use to say AFRICA MRS EDGELL HUNT COLL. LWRNC 1898 P. 355806. Attached Images

12th August 2005, 02:37 PM	#5
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hello Guys! Zalmoxis very beautiful knife. Seems to me an enigma: the scabbard seems similar to the fa fang scabbard, with snake skin; the blade is quite sure shona and the handle seems quite similar to the one of western africa maybe manding! Attached Images

13th August 2005, 01:18 AM	#9
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Another example, nearly identical to the one of zalmoxis, of fang scabbard and knife (the scabbard is covered with snake skin) from Spring. Attached Images

12th August 2005, 05:05 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I WOULD SAY IT IS PROBABLY A OLDER SHONA SHORT SWORD OR KNIFE. ESPECIALLY IF IT HAS THE ODD OFFSET CENTER RIDGE COMMONLY FOUND ON SHONA KNIVES (I HAVENE'T SEEN THAT FEATURE ON OTHER TRIBES WEAPONS) THE HANDLE IS A BIT DIFFERENT THAN THE NORM BUT THERE IS SOMETHING SIMULAR ON PAGE 135 OF "AFRICAN ARMS AND ARMOR" BY CHRISTOPHER SPRING. THE ONE PICTURED THERE EVEN HAS A SORT OF CRUDE GARD. THE SCABBARD APPEARS TO BE COVERED WITH MONOTOR LIZZARD SKIN CAN'T BE SURE FROM THOSE PICTURES. ITS A NICE LOOKING ITEM

12th August 2005, 05:39 AM	#3
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	It does not have the offset center ridge. It is diamond shaped.This was another unusual thing about this one. Plus it has a small section between the blade an hilt where the maker add markings, also unseen on Shona. I will take some other pictures tomorrow.

12th August 2005, 09:34 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I saw this on ebay, I do not think it Shona, more central Africa like Zande or Mangbetu. The seller said it had some damage, I can not see it except the lizard skin. Great knife! Tim

12th August 2005, 07:58 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The scabbard does look very much like those of the Fang but I still say the blade is central African and certainly not Shona. The bar section forte is very C Africa, Zande/ Mangbetu. Could this have come from people to the east of the Fang and to the west of Zande border areas where forms could mix. Tim

12th August 2005, 08:16 PM	#7
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	The scabbard and handle are atypical and a bit of a puzzle to me. Diamond shaped blades can also be found with the Shi or Tutsi. Probably a mixture of different styles as mentioned by the other forum members. Good blades were traded all over Africa. Isn't it possible to trace the origin of this knife. It was surely part of some museum's collection. You should try to find out more. Anyway, I like it. It's beautiful and complete.

12th August 2005, 09:17 PM	#8
zalmoxis Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: GA USA Posts: 76	Very sharp eye about the Fang. I think that you are right and the scabbard is Fang. What about the wirework? It looks Shona or Northern Nguni.I have not seen a weapon from Congo with wirework. Blade looks like Shi people a litlle bit.