shinsa, or adapting the japanese experience

Rivkin · 12th January 2005, 07:19 PM

Dear All,

I'm sorry if my post is unusually stupid, but here is the deal:

With all the hate I have towards the japanese collector community, I have to admit that they have the most well developed society, specifically when it comes to restoration (polishing) and especially appraising.

While selling a few moderately priced items (>400$) on ebay I very often felt sorry that I don't have a professional papered appraisal to accompany my swords. Instead I had to give my own appraisal, which was often too optimistic and probably not the most accurate one.

I would gladly pay some money (NHTK apprasial by email for example is 50$. ) to have my sword appraised (I know Dr.Bezdek does appraisal by mail for 25$).

The procedure I would say should copy the one by NBHTK/NHTK - initial price for an undocumented appraisal (well, they just give you points, but we obviously have to do more, knowing how diverse our community is), and additional money for sexy looking paper.

I would guess it's probably a damn old idea, but I still have problems understanding why it's not in works.

Sincerly yours,

K.Rivkin

Andrew · 12th January 2005, 08:04 PM

Although I don't think it was the intent of your post Rivkin, allow me to point out that the forum rules do not permit appraisals here. Any such appraisal "service" would not be sanction by Vikingsword, and would need to be conducted elsewhere.

One of the problems I see with such an appraisal service is the limited market for many of the weapons we collect. Generally, the potential buyers of an item are (or should be before spending a large sum of money) experienced and educated. It is a learning process, which each of us has travelled through with varying degrees of sucess and fortune. I learn more and more everyday.

Personally, I would still engage in my own "appraisals" prior to buying a weapon, even if accompanied by formal papers. The NBHTK works particularly well to establish provenance, which is almost always lost or suspect in most other ethnographic weapons, so I would question the usefulness of such appraisals.

Of course, something like that might serve to drive prices ever higher.

tom hyle · 13th January 2005, 12:47 PM

It seems that some of the respect accorded to the japanese sword has to do as much with features of being "friendly" to the "Western" mind as with using properties; defineable testing, organized classifying system, records and papers, a deep (though often exaggered even so) love for high high polish, at least a dash of elitism, and tireless self-promotion.....

Rivkin · 13th January 2005, 04:12 PM

On japanese collector's community:

It seems that I have some like minded people around good to know. The thing that ticked me off the most, was that constantly while buying a sword or simply asking something I would receive an absolutely unprovoked responce of this style:

"I've been studied Nihonto for the past 120 years, and only in the past 5 months I became worthy of considering myself a collector. Nihonto is the best sword in the world. Every Nihonto is a completely unique historic piece. Every Nihonto has a spiritual side, that is infinitely complex". I mean why I can buy a Klingenthal sword without such lectures, but a cheapy-crappy gendai - hell no !

And then there are John Does from Iowa who just happened to discover the secrets of the ninjas, and also gained the secret knowledge of nihonto (that they can convey to friendly, lower-ranking, Iowa-ninjas for 200$ an hour).

The thing most surprising to me was that these people needed to be addressed somehow else rather than "Dear Sir". Well, or may be they just start every email with a lecture on how great scholars they are, and how dare some shmucks to actually ask them questions.

Fuh, off the topic, so now back to shinsa:

I would say that ranks, cutting tests and papers is what make a really well developed sword society.

i still see the reason for papers - even big specialists not always can authenticate the item based on photographs, so what to do if you've been offered an item for 3000$, it kind of looks kosher, but the seller does not offer an inspection period ? In Nihonto it's hard to convince people that >2000$ sword is just happened not to have papers.

Rivkin · 13th January 2005, 04:29 PM

However I did mean to offend every single collector of japanese weapons, I apologize if it seemed this way: I merely wanted to point out the problems that drove me from the Nihonto community.

Lee · 14th January 2005, 12:49 PM

In my personal experience, true scholars in a field usually behave as gentlemen and are willing, if not eager, to share their knowledge in their field of expertise and to explain the basis of their observations. And there are many fine scholars in the field of the Japanese sword who do so. Of course, as with anything, there are constraints, such as time, and barriers get erected in response to an unending stream of "I want to be the greatest swordsmith in the history of man; how do I start to make a sword?" inquiries.

In my opinion, formed in the 1970s, too much of the Nihonto community in the US grew up out of a 'greasy gun dealer' mentality of using their knowledge to buy valuable swords from a veteran or his widow at a gun show; I personally have seen one case in the early 1980s where $125 was turned around for $10,000 within a month. Presumably, these easy pickings are fading away and hopefully in time so will the value of withholding of sharing of knowledge to gain economic advantage.

Appraisals and other documentation of expert opinions are most valuable, obviously, to those not in a position to judge for themselves, such as starting collectors and investors.

...more to come

Rivkin · 14th January 2005, 04:46 PM

I probably have to be more specific - I don't mind people not answering questions. We all have jobs, and asking for someone's time is just like asking for a favor.

What I do mind is when people instead of discussion give you a lecture on how great the Nihonto. I do mind the self-promotion aspect, and everything that comes with it.

Yes, people still have drems of a vet hero estate sale, where you can get really nice koto sword for 100$, but this time moves away as we speak. In fact I think Nihonto probably is less profitable today than some other swords.

Concerning certificates - there is a possibility of a person buying a sword because it's just such an interesting thing, even through it is not what he collects. In such cases, far too often happening with me, I would gladly spent 25-150$ for a professional, certified appraisal.

Lee · 14th January 2005, 07:39 PM

Rivkin, to be honest, I have seen the same extremes of chauvinism among some high end European arms collectors, who, in turn, look 'down their nose' at Japanese swords. To me, however, the reality is that many cultures have produced fine edged and non-edged weapons, and I enjoy most all of them for what they are. Indeed, each is a product of the environment it was created in and is optimized for its purpose in that context, so I doubt a truly accurate answer can be given about which is better or best.

continuing ...Appraisals and other documentation of expert opinions are most valuable, obviously, to those not in a position to judge for themselves, such as starting collectors and investors otherwise not interested in the objects. I understand that someone performing an apprasial undertakes a fiduciary responsibility not only to the person who commissioned the appraisal but potentially to later buyers relying on such a document. For that reason, doing an appraisal carries with it a lot of potential liability, which is why, if one looks at the 'legalese' page of this website, you will find that "no warranty is made concerning the accuracy of such material, and no responsibility or liability is assumed for any use made of this information."

I have been fooled too many times by pictures, even pictures of excellent quality, and will personally never issue a binding opinion on the basis of such an observation by proxy. Sometimes I (like most here) will risk the cash and buy something from an InterNet auction or webstore, but it is somewhat less daunting if I am risking a known quantity of my own cash.

Perhaps the presently very informal group we have formed about the annual Timonium gathering will eventually organize itself and form 'shinsa' committees to issue evaluations on ethnographic arms. Even then, it would probably be essential that the actual items be brought or sent for evaluation by such a committee.

I expect that there may be some forum members who do, in fact, issue professional appraisals for a fee and you may wish to post in the swap forum asking that they advise you if they are prepared to offer services in the particular area you desire.

Federico · 14th January 2005, 08:02 PM

I see the merit in standardization of evaluation, and in theory it sounds like a decent proposal. Particularly for new collectors whose knowledge of what is real, current pricing, etc... is limited. Or even for more experienced collectors to get a feel for what other's are thinking about pricing, and what constitutes quality.

However, as has been expressed already, I fear in practical application such standardization will ultimately have more negative attributes than positive.

Such as a dramatic increase in pricing.

An increased tendency to the chauvanism/elitism as expressed in some instances in the more established Nihonto community.

And particularly since Ethnographic weaponry is such a broad, and often ill-studied field a possible hardening in theoretical pedagogy that may create myths, that due to a pile of "shinsa" papers behind them, will be difficult to un-trench as new research appears. Even in our informal community here, we have often had strong debate over changing theories of origin and development, I can only imagine how much more difficult these debates would become if weak theories are propagated via hundreds of "shinsa" papers, because at the time of evaluation these theories were all that was available.

Anyways, I know one of the joys for me, when it comes to collecting Ethnographic weaponry, and one of the main reasons I have stayed away from more established collecting circles, such as Nihonto and European swords (well wouldnt say no if someone wished to donate a nice piece

Has been the informality of collecting. I dont need to be some grand wazir who has spend X number of years collecting/studying to have an appreciation for ethnographic pieces. I also dont need to be a millionaire to collect (and as someone who is below the poverty level in income this fact is very handy). There is also freedom to do my own research, and come up with my own conclusions. While we have strong debate on the forum, and we often dis-agree, in the end we are collectors voicing our opinions. There is no hard fast laws being set in stone by our debate, only additions to the discourse.

This is also part of the big reason I favor the EEWRS over many other "sword" discussion forums, particularly since attitudes and opinions are not as entrenched. I still feel that the EEWRS holds a high level of scholarly debate. While not perfect, and not necessarily fully entrenched in academic precedence or form (I do see merit in Ruel's critical thinking thread and acknowledge that I myself am guilty of not being as critical here as I would be in an academic setting), in comparisson to many other circles is still leaps and bounds ahead. It would be nice if we could all have access to provenanced collections, and be able to draw our opinions off of first hand research, but the reality is we are mere collectors who are indulging in a hobby. And in that regard, it is amazing at the level to which we can and have been able to draw theoretical research.

12th January 2005, 07:19 PM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	shinsa, or adapting the japanese experience Dear All, I'm sorry if my post is unusually stupid, but here is the deal: With all the hate I have towards the japanese collector community, I have to admit that they have the most well developed society, specifically when it comes to restoration (polishing) and especially appraising. While selling a few moderately priced items (>400$) on ebay I very often felt sorry that I don't have a professional papered appraisal to accompany my swords. Instead I had to give my own appraisal, which was often too optimistic and probably not the most accurate one. I would gladly pay some money (NHTK apprasial by email for example is 50$. ) to have my sword appraised (I know Dr.Bezdek does appraisal by mail for 25$). The procedure I would say should copy the one by NBHTK/NHTK - initial price for an undocumented appraisal (well, they just give you points, but we obviously have to do more, knowing how diverse our community is), and additional money for sexy looking paper. I would guess it's probably a damn old idea, but I still have problems understanding why it's not in works. Sincerly yours, K.Rivkin

14th January 2005, 12:49 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	In my personal experience, true scholars in a field usually behave as gentlemen and are willing, if not eager, to share their knowledge in their field of expertise and to explain the basis of their observations. And there are many fine scholars in the field of the Japanese sword who do so. Of course, as with anything, there are constraints, such as time, and barriers get erected in response to an unending stream of "I want to be the greatest swordsmith in the history of man; how do I start to make a sword?" inquiries. In my opinion, formed in the 1970s, too much of the Nihonto community in the US grew up out of a 'greasy gun dealer' mentality of using their knowledge to buy valuable swords from a veteran or his widow at a gun show; I personally have seen one case in the early 1980s where $125 was turned around for $10,000 within a month. Presumably, these easy pickings are fading away and hopefully in time so will the value of withholding of sharing of knowledge to gain economic advantage. Appraisals and other documentation of expert opinions are most valuable, obviously, to those not in a position to judge for themselves, such as starting collectors and investors. ...more to come Last edited by Lee Jones; 14th January 2005 at 02:04 PM. Reason: To finish the incomplete post

12th January 2005, 08:04 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Although I don't think it was the intent of your post Rivkin, allow me to point out that the forum rules do not permit appraisals here. Any such appraisal "service" would not be sanction by Vikingsword, and would need to be conducted elsewhere. One of the problems I see with such an appraisal service is the limited market for many of the weapons we collect. Generally, the potential buyers of an item are (or should be before spending a large sum of money) experienced and educated. It is a learning process, which each of us has travelled through with varying degrees of sucess and fortune. I learn more and more everyday. Personally, I would still engage in my own "appraisals" prior to buying a weapon, even if accompanied by formal papers. The NBHTK works particularly well to establish provenance, which is almost always lost or suspect in most other ethnographic weapons, so I would question the usefulness of such appraisals. Of course, something like that might serve to drive prices ever higher.

13th January 2005, 12:47 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It seems that some of the respect accorded to the japanese sword has to do as much with features of being "friendly" to the "Western" mind as with using properties; defineable testing, organized classifying system, records and papers, a deep (though often exaggered even so) love for high high polish, at least a dash of elitism, and tireless self-promotion.....

13th January 2005, 04:12 PM	#4
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	On japanese collector's community: It seems that I have some like minded people around good to know. The thing that ticked me off the most, was that constantly while buying a sword or simply asking something I would receive an absolutely unprovoked responce of this style: "I've been studied Nihonto for the past 120 years, and only in the past 5 months I became worthy of considering myself a collector. Nihonto is the best sword in the world. Every Nihonto is a completely unique historic piece. Every Nihonto has a spiritual side, that is infinitely complex". I mean why I can buy a Klingenthal sword without such lectures, but a cheapy-crappy gendai - hell no ! And then there are John Does from Iowa who just happened to discover the secrets of the ninjas, and also gained the secret knowledge of nihonto (that they can convey to friendly, lower-ranking, Iowa-ninjas for 200$ an hour). The thing most surprising to me was that these people needed to be addressed somehow else rather than "Dear Sir". Well, or may be they just start every email with a lecture on how great scholars they are, and how dare some shmucks to actually ask them questions. Fuh, off the topic, so now back to shinsa: I would say that ranks, cutting tests and papers is what make a really well developed sword society. i still see the reason for papers - even big specialists not always can authenticate the item based on photographs, so what to do if you've been offered an item for 3000$, it kind of looks kosher, but the seller does not offer an inspection period ? In Nihonto it's hard to convince people that >2000$ sword is just happened not to have papers.

13th January 2005, 04:29 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	However I did mean to offend every single collector of japanese weapons, I apologize if it seemed this way: I merely wanted to point out the problems that drove me from the Nihonto community.

14th January 2005, 04:46 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I probably have to be more specific - I don't mind people not answering questions. We all have jobs, and asking for someone's time is just like asking for a favor. What I do mind is when people instead of discussion give you a lecture on how great the Nihonto. I do mind the self-promotion aspect, and everything that comes with it. Yes, people still have drems of a vet hero estate sale, where you can get really nice koto sword for 100$, but this time moves away as we speak. In fact I think Nihonto probably is less profitable today than some other swords. Concerning certificates - there is a possibility of a person buying a sword because it's just such an interesting thing, even through it is not what he collects. In such cases, far too often happening with me, I would gladly spent 25-150$ for a professional, certified appraisal.

14th January 2005, 07:39 PM	#8
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Rivkin, to be honest, I have seen the same extremes of chauvinism among some high end European arms collectors, who, in turn, look 'down their nose' at Japanese swords. To me, however, the reality is that many cultures have produced fine edged and non-edged weapons, and I enjoy most all of them for what they are. Indeed, each is a product of the environment it was created in and is optimized for its purpose in that context, so I doubt a truly accurate answer can be given about which is better or best. continuing ...Appraisals and other documentation of expert opinions are most valuable, obviously, to those not in a position to judge for themselves, such as starting collectors and investors otherwise not interested in the objects. I understand that someone performing an apprasial undertakes a fiduciary responsibility not only to the person who commissioned the appraisal but potentially to later buyers relying on such a document. For that reason, doing an appraisal carries with it a lot of potential liability, which is why, if one looks at the 'legalese' page of this website, you will find that "no warranty is made concerning the accuracy of such material, and no responsibility or liability is assumed for any use made of this information." I have been fooled too many times by pictures, even pictures of excellent quality, and will personally never issue a binding opinion on the basis of such an observation by proxy. Sometimes I (like most here) will risk the cash and buy something from an InterNet auction or webstore, but it is somewhat less daunting if I am risking a known quantity of my own cash. Perhaps the presently very informal group we have formed about the annual Timonium gathering will eventually organize itself and form 'shinsa' committees to issue evaluations on ethnographic arms. Even then, it would probably be essential that the actual items be brought or sent for evaluation by such a committee. I expect that there may be some forum members who do, in fact, issue professional appraisals for a fee and you may wish to post in the swap forum asking that they advise you if they are prepared to offer services in the particular area you desire.

14th January 2005, 08:02 PM	#9
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I see the merit in standardization of evaluation, and in theory it sounds like a decent proposal. Particularly for new collectors whose knowledge of what is real, current pricing, etc... is limited. Or even for more experienced collectors to get a feel for what other's are thinking about pricing, and what constitutes quality. However, as has been expressed already, I fear in practical application such standardization will ultimately have more negative attributes than positive. Such as a dramatic increase in pricing. An increased tendency to the chauvanism/elitism as expressed in some instances in the more established Nihonto community. And particularly since Ethnographic weaponry is such a broad, and often ill-studied field a possible hardening in theoretical pedagogy that may create myths, that due to a pile of "shinsa" papers behind them, will be difficult to un-trench as new research appears. Even in our informal community here, we have often had strong debate over changing theories of origin and development, I can only imagine how much more difficult these debates would become if weak theories are propagated via hundreds of "shinsa" papers, because at the time of evaluation these theories were all that was available. Anyways, I know one of the joys for me, when it comes to collecting Ethnographic weaponry, and one of the main reasons I have stayed away from more established collecting circles, such as Nihonto and European swords (well wouldnt say no if someone wished to donate a nice piece Has been the informality of collecting. I dont need to be some grand wazir who has spend X number of years collecting/studying to have an appreciation for ethnographic pieces. I also dont need to be a millionaire to collect (and as someone who is below the poverty level in income this fact is very handy). There is also freedom to do my own research, and come up with my own conclusions. While we have strong debate on the forum, and we often dis-agree, in the end we are collectors voicing our opinions. There is no hard fast laws being set in stone by our debate, only additions to the discourse. This is also part of the big reason I favor the EEWRS over many other "sword" discussion forums, particularly since attitudes and opinions are not as entrenched. I still feel that the EEWRS holds a high level of scholarly debate. While not perfect, and not necessarily fully entrenched in academic precedence or form (I do see merit in Ruel's critical thinking thread and acknowledge that I myself am guilty of not being as critical here as I would be in an academic setting), in comparisson to many other circles is still leaps and bounds ahead. It would be nice if we could all have access to provenanced collections, and be able to draw our opinions off of first hand research, but the reality is we are mere collectors who are indulging in a hobby. And in that regard, it is amazing at the level to which we can and have been able to draw theoretical research.