19th Century German hunting Sword

neekee · 9th December 2013, 12:52 AM

Hello, all ~

I'm new here, so I'll shortly introduce myself. I'm from France, and love history, and have been fascinated by the Medieval period eversince I was a kid. I am by no mean an expert in anything, but take interest in all kind of topics, ranging from weaponry to coins or ancient tools, for example.

I only discovered this forum recently and have been amazed by the quality of the posts and information being shared here. It's still to this day not so easy to find valuable information about early Medieval to early Renaissance weaponry, and I have been reading topics on this forum with great surprise and interest for a week now.

My financial state forbids me to collect original weapons from these times, but I do have a few things that were passed to me from my family that i can share if you're interested. Nothing too fancy though, I'm afraid.

I did want to ask you guys about this blade because it's the only one that still partly holds some mystery to me. I've seen it around my grand parents' house since childhood and always thought it was only some 20th century decoration item, but noticed it was actually a quite proper weapon when I started actually researching those things some years ago.

It was identified before as a "19th century German hunting sword", but no one so far could identify the marking on it.

I wanted to ask you guys if you could validate or not this identification, and even better, if you could find the blacksmith to whom belonged this marking.

Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the shared knowledge !

blade width: ~55cm
handle width: ~13cm

kronckew · 9th December 2013, 10:25 AM

can you post photos of the whole sword (with but out of scabbard if it has one)?

neekee · 9th December 2013, 10:31 AM

Sorry there was a problem with attachments but i couldn't see it since my posts still are being validated by moderators. Edited now. ^^

kronckew · 9th December 2013, 04:56 PM

any other markings on the blade? looks like something about 1/4 the way down from the grip.

a quick search did not reveal anything on that sun marking near the hilt. i'm sure our other experts have much better reference materials tho.

many swords had blades made in solingen, and were hilted in other countries, such as france. curved hunting sabres/hangers were not the norm. looks a bit too simple for french tho

y'all liked them ornate back then.

i'm sure a ship's officer would have liked to carry a handy weapon like that tho. my initial impression was 18c but it's not really an area i'm very knowledgeable in.

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2013, 06:28 AM

Neekee welcome to the forum!! and thank you for sharing this very nice hanger which while of the general form of European hunting swords would be hard to classify as 'German'. I would presume this more likely 18th century as Kronckew has noted, and as he also has suggested, there does seem to be some kind of configuration further down the blade.

The deep circular stamp near the forte seems possibly to be a rather stylized version of what is often termed loosely the 'Dutch star' ("Blanke Wapens", Puype, p.50) which commonly occurred on Dutch blades. According to notes from Fernando taken from a Dutch curator, these radiating figures similar to a sunburst or sunflower were a kind of paternoster. As often the case, these kinds of marks are not attributed to a particular maker, but favored by certain groups or regions in varying periods and applied in rather a talismanic sense. Other dialogue has suggested these often deep set devices seem to have ceased use about middle of 18th c.

While Solingen indeed provided many blades to European markets, a number of smiths emigrated to Netherlands where they continued production.

These hangers were favored by gentry and nobility as riding swords and were favored as well by officers, often naval as Kronkew notes. These swords were also often considered dress or even court swords.The stylized nature of the stamp suggests this blade may be later in 18th century, and the form was in use into the 19th, but this example seems probably Dutch mid to later 18th century.

neekee · 10th December 2013, 08:10 PM

Thanks a lot for the insightful comments guys. I closely examined the blade again but couldn't find any other markings. The "sun" marking is on both side of the blades though, and I will provide new detailed shots with this post.

Thanks again !

9th December 2013, 12:52 AM	#1
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	18th Century hanger or cutlass probably Dutch Hello, all ~ I'm new here, so I'll shortly introduce myself. I'm from France, and love history, and have been fascinated by the Medieval period eversince I was a kid. I am by no mean an expert in anything, but take interest in all kind of topics, ranging from weaponry to coins or ancient tools, for example. I only discovered this forum recently and have been amazed by the quality of the posts and information being shared here. It's still to this day not so easy to find valuable information about early Medieval to early Renaissance weaponry, and I have been reading topics on this forum with great surprise and interest for a week now. My financial state forbids me to collect original weapons from these times, but I do have a few things that were passed to me from my family that i can share if you're interested. Nothing too fancy though, I'm afraid. I did want to ask you guys about this blade because it's the only one that still partly holds some mystery to me. I've seen it around my grand parents' house since childhood and always thought it was only some 20th century decoration item, but noticed it was actually a quite proper weapon when I started actually researching those things some years ago. It was identified before as a "19th century German hunting sword", but no one so far could identify the marking on it. I wanted to ask you guys if you could validate or not this identification, and even better, if you could find the blacksmith to whom belonged this marking. Thanks in advance, and thanks for all the shared knowledge ! blade width: ~55cm handle width: ~13cm Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th December 2013 at 09:47 PM.

10th December 2013, 08:10 PM	#6
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Thanks a lot for the insightful comments guys. I closely examined the blade again but couldn't find any other markings. The "sun" marking is on both side of the blades though, and I will provide new detailed shots with this post. Thanks again ! Attached Images

9th December 2013, 10:25 AM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	can you post photos of the whole sword (with but out of scabbard if it has one)?

9th December 2013, 10:31 AM	#3
neekee Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: France Posts: 12	Sorry there was a problem with attachments but i couldn't see it since my posts still are being validated by moderators. Edited now. ^^

9th December 2013, 04:56 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	any other markings on the blade? looks like something about 1/4 the way down from the grip. a quick search did not reveal anything on that sun marking near the hilt. i'm sure our other experts have much better reference materials tho. many swords had blades made in solingen, and were hilted in other countries, such as france. curved hunting sabres/hangers were not the norm. looks a bit too simple for french tho y'all liked them ornate back then. i'm sure a ship's officer would have liked to carry a handy weapon like that tho. my initial impression was 18c but it's not really an area i'm very knowledgeable in.

10th December 2013, 06:28 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,948	Neekee welcome to the forum!! and thank you for sharing this very nice hanger which while of the general form of European hunting swords would be hard to classify as 'German'. I would presume this more likely 18th century as Kronckew has noted, and as he also has suggested, there does seem to be some kind of configuration further down the blade. The deep circular stamp near the forte seems possibly to be a rather stylized version of what is often termed loosely the 'Dutch star' ("Blanke Wapens", Puype, p.50) which commonly occurred on Dutch blades. According to notes from Fernando taken from a Dutch curator, these radiating figures similar to a sunburst or sunflower were a kind of paternoster. As often the case, these kinds of marks are not attributed to a particular maker, but favored by certain groups or regions in varying periods and applied in rather a talismanic sense. Other dialogue has suggested these often deep set devices seem to have ceased use about middle of 18th c. While Solingen indeed provided many blades to European markets, a number of smiths emigrated to Netherlands where they continued production. These hangers were favored by gentry and nobility as riding swords and were favored as well by officers, often naval as Kronkew notes. These swords were also often considered dress or even court swords.The stylized nature of the stamp suggests this blade may be later in 18th century, and the form was in use into the 19th, but this example seems probably Dutch mid to later 18th century.