Tenegre and mystery knife...

Spunjer · 14th April 2005, 02:02 AM

found this tenegre in an antique shop today. the handle is made out of carabao horn. the diety is unlike i've seen before. it looks like a bat with three horns. the guard is tear drop shaped; at first i thought it was pure decoration, but when i held it in my hand, it made a lot of sense. the pointy part of the teardrop actually protects the knuckles. pretty slick, huh?
here's the stats:
total length: 25"
handle:6"
blade width (widest): 1 5/16"
blade width (narrow): 5/16"

tom hyle · 14th April 2005, 02:09 AM

Wow! I'm sending out vibes for examples, and "boom!" someone posts a big ol' fancy nice matulis-like talibesque

Thanks. Teardrop guard and everybody.
Now, I'm picturing a woman. In her hand is a suitcase.......go, go, magic Genie

Usually this particular pommel is thought of as a (very stylized

) naga, I think? But check those big, fairly explicit ears. No ferule? Does the guard by any chance form a ferule, ala kampilan? Ie does the handle socket into a mortice in the guard?

tom hyle · 14th April 2005, 02:12 AM

Oh no, but it's the Visayan sideways teardrop, that gives a protective effect somewhat like an annoe. Will I start waiting for all the pictures one day? Maybe, but they can be awful slow, and sometimes I don't even know if they're finished or not........

Spunjer · 14th April 2005, 02:09 AM

here's the mysterious knife. the seller gave it to me as a gift. it has some engravings on the blade, but i'm not sure what it signifies. hopefully someone can shed some light. the handle appears to be made out of wood. not too sure about it being carabao horn and it has a brass ferrule. the pommel is a fist signifying 'thumb's up'...
total length: 16"
handle:5"

Spunjer · 14th April 2005, 02:15 AM

ROTFLMAO!!!
tom, as for the guard, it does remind me of kampilan style. it's (the guard) made out of wood, btw...

rick, would be nice to see another example of this paniki (bat) hilt...

tom hyle · 14th April 2005, 02:19 AM

The mystery knife; PI; Luzon? Looks like a type of matulis, etc. The fist is a Katapunin symbol, I think? Probably edge-hardened. Is there a full length tang? Note the resemblance in the clipped point to Mexican bolos.

Spunjer · 14th April 2005, 02:25 AM

i believe it's full length, tom. there's a nail(?) on the tip of the pommel. i thought it was katipunan, too (because of the fist). any chance of it being a tourist piece, tho?...

tom hyle · 14th April 2005, 03:28 AM

It doesn't seem like it to me, but one wonders, especially in light of Ian's wonderings, if there mightn't have been (for instance) a trade in these to Spain or other points in the empire. Probably the tip of a tang, rather than the nail common on kukuri. I wonder if it might've once had a thin sheet metal guard; there's a space, and it might be original or not, but I've seen a lot of thin guards badly torn and other swords that seem to have lost guards. I like the engraving; it reminds me of some newer Moro work, but remember this is not Moro, nor direct neighbors of the Moros (the tenegre is, more or less, being Visayan, and this seems similar to some Visayan engraving I've seen, too).
BTW, presumeably you mean 5/16" thickness, rather than width?

Rick · 14th April 2005, 02:10 AM

Old , isn't it .
Real interesting and functional shape for the guard .
I think we've seen more sophisticated carved bat pommels before , no ?

LabanTayo · 14th April 2005, 12:26 PM

here is an old thread with pics of my "bathead" tenegre.

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../002597-3.html

Ian · 14th April 2005, 02:11 PM

Thanks Shelley. Any thoughts about the ages of your example and Spunjer's.

Ian.

Battara · 14th April 2005, 02:12 PM

I'm sort of in line with Ian on the dating of these pieces. Tagalogs also used okir designs along with others like the Ilocanos.

BTW - with all of these "batheads" does this make you folks "Batmen"?

LabanTayo · 14th April 2005, 05:40 PM

Tom,
The horn hilt has shrunk and pushed the tang out.

The Bathead theory is just that, a theory.
Batheads are predominately from Batangas, but these swords that Spunjer and I have, are not from Batangas. They are Visayan. Panay or Negros.
One thing to look for in the Bathead are the fangs. They do not have them, for the most part. I have several examples of Tenegres / Binangons / Sanduko, with deities that look like Batheads, but they have the fangs.
The fangs are usually in the back of the mouth. I also have and example that is definetely from Panay, but does not have fangs. This is one of the road blocks in our research. Zel is in the Philippines now, and I'll be there next week. Hopefully we can get some answers. and beer. and food.

The inlay on my blade has been somewhat translated.
They are militia / religious symbols. I need more research on it before I state publicly what they mean. Hope you understand.

Federico · 14th April 2005, 09:08 PM

A while back Zel posted that the tenegres with metal guards were old (circa Katipunan era), the wood guards were even older, and the tear shape guards even older than those.

Spunjer · 14th April 2005, 10:54 PM

shelley,
thanks for your input! i have to say this is the first visayan sword i own that has some value. when i called the antique shop owner and said he had a sword that has a 'chameleon' head with three horns, i just about fell off my chair. at first i thought he meant one of those sandukos, but seeing what he had, i was happy with it, too.

about the batheads: most of you know that pilipinos are very superstitious. if this sword was indeed from panay, maybe this theory would make sense. one of the things that are still widely believed are supernatural beings called aswangs. now these aswangs, or blood suckers, are actually human being during daylight, but at night, they turn into these hideous creatures (http://pedia.nodeworks.com/A/AS/ASW/Aswang/). hideous as in they turn into this winged creatures with bat like wings. now there are towns in iloilo that are known to be these aswangs' lairs. one of them is duenas. also, the province of capiz is a pretty notorious place. my thinking is, and i'm sure the local population were aware of this reputation, these towns used the bathead as a design for their hilt. please don't shoot me; it's just a theory...

federico,
yeah, i think i read that someplace here...

tom,
it does kinda remind me of a talibon somewhat...

p.s.
labantayo, eat some sisig for me, will ya!!!

Conogre · 16th April 2005, 06:13 AM

Cool....even the Philippines has their own version of the vampire/ghoul myth, AKA "Ann Rice Does Manilla".
On the other hand, I've also heard that in parts of the islands the flying foxes are also eagerly sought after as food, in spite of the beliefs....then again, maybe it's on islands w/o the supernatural attribution that they appear on the menu (to the point that I've heard that they are now have protected/endangered status)
yes/no?

On that nore, good night all.
Mike

zelbone · 16th April 2005, 08:56 AM

Well, well...I leave the country and all this cool discussion goes on

!!!

Anyways, been looking at all these cool bolos and balisongs here in Batangas. Been to Taal, Balisong, San Jose, Lemery, Lipa, etc. looking for weapons and answers. It seems that the only bolos you find here are ones with wooden scabbards and plain hilts. If you want a fancy bolo, you have to have it custom made for you. That's really not that hard to do here. Most sellers have roadside stalls with ready made working bolos, but will make up a fighting bolo for you if you request. The most popular carved hilt form is the horse head here in Batangas. In fact on of the symbols for Batangas is the horse. The bathead is also very popular here, but I just found out today that the bathead style is more popular in Bicol. I haven't found out if it originated there, but the bathead form is also from there. Bicol's proximity to the Visayas could account for the similarity to Visayan swords.

Anyways, I gotta go to a cockfight (sabong) right now and down a few San Miguel later. I don't know when I'll have internet access again. I'll be in Manila in a couple of days and see whats going on.

Spunjer · 16th April 2005, 12:39 PM

hey zel!
nice to hear from you! glad to hear you're having a good time. yeah, i can't believe how sabong is so big over there. i knew it was popular back then, but when i was there the last time, can't believe how big it got. been to capiz yet?
as for internet access, it's all over manila, bro. seems like there's an internet cafe in every corner...

btw, i'm still having flashbacks from the way people drive over there, lol!

Spunjer · 16th April 2005, 04:21 PM

conogre,
as far as being eagerly sought for food, i'm not familiar with that. if anything, it's more of a delicacy. also, as far as fauna is concerned, that's different. what i mentioned were supernatural beings, transforming into an animal form...

another thing i notice about the hilt is this: what appears to be horns are actually more of a representation of eyes, ala snail. comments?

Rick · 16th April 2005, 04:51 PM

Spunjer , those features start from the jaw line ; couldn't they also be interpreted as tusks (ala Boar) ?

Bill · 16th April 2005, 06:45 PM

a couple of things to concider, in the last hundred years hardwoods were stripped from these islands wiping out species. but new unknown species or ones thought to be extinct are also found. Mix that with lost superstitions & myths, I think some of these critters may be hard to guess & may have been copies of hilts going back a couple hundred years, more traditional than a likeness of a present critter. From what I have seen, there seems to be a lot more bats than birds, the bats do well in the palm trees, the birds likely suffered with the lack of hardwoods. With compition between bats, likely several species became extinct.

14th April 2005, 02:02 AM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Tenegre and mystery knife... found this tenegre in an antique shop today. the handle is made out of carabao horn. the diety is unlike i've seen before. it looks like a bat with three horns. the guard is tear drop shaped; at first i thought it was pure decoration, but when i held it in my hand, it made a lot of sense. the pointy part of the teardrop actually protects the knuckles. pretty slick, huh? here's the stats: total length: 25" handle:6" blade width (widest): 1 5/16" blade width (narrow): 5/16" Attached Images

14th April 2005, 02:09 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Wow! I'm sending out vibes for examples, and "boom!" someone posts a big ol' fancy nice matulis-like talibesque Thanks. Teardrop guard and everybody. Now, I'm picturing a woman. In her hand is a suitcase.......go, go, magic Genie Usually this particular pommel is thought of as a (very stylized ) naga, I think? But check those big, fairly explicit ears. No ferule? Does the guard by any chance form a ferule, ala kampilan? Ie does the handle socket into a mortice in the guard? Last edited by tom hyle; 14th April 2005 at 02:14 AM. Reason: fairly

14th April 2005, 02:09 AM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	here's the mysterious knife. the seller gave it to me as a gift. it has some engravings on the blade, but i'm not sure what it signifies. hopefully someone can shed some light. the handle appears to be made out of wood. not too sure about it being carabao horn and it has a brass ferrule. the pommel is a fist signifying 'thumb's up'... total length: 16" handle:5" Attached Images

14th April 2005, 02:19 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	....and a matulis! The mystery knife; PI; Luzon? Looks like a type of matulis, etc. The fist is a Katapunin symbol, I think? Probably edge-hardened. Is there a full length tang? Note the resemblance in the clipped point to Mexican bolos. Last edited by tom hyle; 14th April 2005 at 04:16 AM. Reason: ......and a matulis!

14th April 2005, 12:26 PM	#10
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	here is an old thread with pics of my "bathead" tenegre. http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum.../002597-3.html Attached Images

14th April 2005, 02:12 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Oh no, but it's the Visayan sideways teardrop, that gives a protective effect somewhat like an annoe. Will I start waiting for all the pictures one day? Maybe, but they can be awful slow, and sometimes I don't even know if they're finished or not........

14th April 2005, 02:15 AM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	ROTFLMAO!!! tom, as for the guard, it does remind me of kampilan style. it's (the guard) made out of wood, btw... rick, would be nice to see another example of this paniki (bat) hilt...

14th April 2005, 02:25 AM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	i believe it's full length, tom. there's a nail(?) on the tip of the pommel. i thought it was katipunan, too (because of the fist). any chance of it being a tourist piece, tho?...

14th April 2005, 03:28 AM	#8
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	It doesn't seem like it to me, but one wonders, especially in light of Ian's wonderings, if there mightn't have been (for instance) a trade in these to Spain or other points in the empire. Probably the tip of a tang, rather than the nail common on kukuri. I wonder if it might've once had a thin sheet metal guard; there's a space, and it might be original or not, but I've seen a lot of thin guards badly torn and other swords that seem to have lost guards. I like the engraving; it reminds me of some newer Moro work, but remember this is not Moro, nor direct neighbors of the Moros (the tenegre is, more or less, being Visayan, and this seems similar to some Visayan engraving I've seen, too). BTW, presumeably you mean 5/16" thickness, rather than width?

14th April 2005, 02:10 AM	#9
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Old , isn't it . Real interesting and functional shape for the guard . I think we've seen more sophisticated carved bat pommels before , no ?

14th April 2005, 02:11 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Thanks Shelley. Any thoughts about the ages of your example and Spunjer's. Ian.

14th April 2005, 02:12 PM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	I'm sort of in line with Ian on the dating of these pieces. Tagalogs also used okir designs along with others like the Ilocanos. BTW - with all of these "batheads" does this make you folks "Batmen"?

14th April 2005, 05:40 PM	#13
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	Tom, The horn hilt has shrunk and pushed the tang out. The Bathead theory is just that, a theory. Batheads are predominately from Batangas, but these swords that Spunjer and I have, are not from Batangas. They are Visayan. Panay or Negros. One thing to look for in the Bathead are the fangs. They do not have them, for the most part. I have several examples of Tenegres / Binangons / Sanduko, with deities that look like Batheads, but they have the fangs. The fangs are usually in the back of the mouth. I also have and example that is definetely from Panay, but does not have fangs. This is one of the road blocks in our research. Zel is in the Philippines now, and I'll be there next week. Hopefully we can get some answers. and beer. and food. The inlay on my blade has been somewhat translated. They are militia / religious symbols. I need more research on it before I state publicly what they mean. Hope you understand. Last edited by LabanTayo; 14th April 2005 at 08:55 PM.

14th April 2005, 09:08 PM	#14
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	A while back Zel posted that the tenegres with metal guards were old (circa Katipunan era), the wood guards were even older, and the tear shape guards even older than those.

14th April 2005, 10:54 PM	#15
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	shelley, thanks for your input! i have to say this is the first visayan sword i own that has some value. when i called the antique shop owner and said he had a sword that has a 'chameleon' head with three horns, i just about fell off my chair. at first i thought he meant one of those sandukos, but seeing what he had, i was happy with it, too. about the batheads: most of you know that pilipinos are very superstitious. if this sword was indeed from panay, maybe this theory would make sense. one of the things that are still widely believed are supernatural beings called aswangs. now these aswangs, or blood suckers, are actually human being during daylight, but at night, they turn into these hideous creatures (http://pedia.nodeworks.com/A/AS/ASW/Aswang/). hideous as in they turn into this winged creatures with bat like wings. now there are towns in iloilo that are known to be these aswangs' lairs. one of them is duenas. also, the province of capiz is a pretty notorious place. my thinking is, and i'm sure the local population were aware of this reputation, these towns used the bathead as a design for their hilt. please don't shoot me; it's just a theory... federico, yeah, i think i read that someplace here... tom, it does kinda remind me of a talibon somewhat... p.s. labantayo, eat some sisig for me, will ya!!!

16th April 2005, 06:13 AM	#16
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Cool....even the Philippines has their own version of the vampire/ghoul myth, AKA "Ann Rice Does Manilla". On the other hand, I've also heard that in parts of the islands the flying foxes are also eagerly sought after as food, in spite of the beliefs....then again, maybe it's on islands w/o the supernatural attribution that they appear on the menu (to the point that I've heard that they are now have protected/endangered status) yes/no? On that nore, good night all. Mike

16th April 2005, 08:56 AM	#17
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	GREETINGS FROM BATANGAS Well, well...I leave the country and all this cool discussion goes on !!! Anyways, been looking at all these cool bolos and balisongs here in Batangas. Been to Taal, Balisong, San Jose, Lemery, Lipa, etc. looking for weapons and answers. It seems that the only bolos you find here are ones with wooden scabbards and plain hilts. If you want a fancy bolo, you have to have it custom made for you. That's really not that hard to do here. Most sellers have roadside stalls with ready made working bolos, but will make up a fighting bolo for you if you request. The most popular carved hilt form is the horse head here in Batangas. In fact on of the symbols for Batangas is the horse. The bathead is also very popular here, but I just found out today that the bathead style is more popular in Bicol. I haven't found out if it originated there, but the bathead form is also from there. Bicol's proximity to the Visayas could account for the similarity to Visayan swords. Anyways, I gotta go to a cockfight (sabong) right now and down a few San Miguel later. I don't know when I'll have internet access again. I'll be in Manila in a couple of days and see whats going on.

16th April 2005, 12:39 PM	#18
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	hey zel! nice to hear from you! glad to hear you're having a good time. yeah, i can't believe how sabong is so big over there. i knew it was popular back then, but when i was there the last time, can't believe how big it got. been to capiz yet? as for internet access, it's all over manila, bro. seems like there's an internet cafe in every corner... btw, i'm still having flashbacks from the way people drive over there, lol!

16th April 2005, 04:21 PM	#19
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	conogre, as far as being eagerly sought for food, i'm not familiar with that. if anything, it's more of a delicacy. also, as far as fauna is concerned, that's different. what i mentioned were supernatural beings, transforming into an animal form... another thing i notice about the hilt is this: what appears to be horns are actually more of a representation of eyes, ala snail. comments? Attached Images

16th April 2005, 04:51 PM	#20
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Spunjer , those features start from the jaw line ; couldn't they also be interpreted as tusks (ala Boar) ?

16th April 2005, 06:45 PM	#21
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	a couple of things to concider, in the last hundred years hardwoods were stripped from these islands wiping out species. but new unknown species or ones thought to be extinct are also found. Mix that with lost superstitions & myths, I think some of these critters may be hard to guess & may have been copies of hilts going back a couple hundred years, more traditional than a likeness of a present critter. From what I have seen, there seems to be a lot more bats than birds, the bats do well in the palm trees, the birds likely suffered with the lack of hardwoods. With compition between bats, likely several species became extinct.