Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper?

Tim Simmons · 5th October 2007, 04:53 PM

Is this Asian? 44cm long in total, blade 22cm. If so where from? Any information would be very helpful.

This is a follow on from this thread.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

Tim Simmons · 5th October 2007, 07:32 PM

Sorted

ariel · 5th October 2007, 09:12 PM

That's a pretty little Mak, isn't it?
Maks are essentially glaives and should be held in both hands. I just try to imagine a midget wielding it and....

Where is the Snow White?

Lew · 5th October 2007, 09:49 PM

Ooooo! Here comes mak the knife

Nice piece you have there Tim.

Lew

RhysMichael · 6th October 2007, 01:15 AM

I almost looks like a ram dao to me but the curve goes the wrong way and there is no eye inscription

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2007, 11:39 AM

I think it is a Ram Dao. Specific to the worship of Kali. The black wood being relevent to this purpose. The example in the link is very nice with the white Ivory symbolic of Shiva. It is really quite amazing what one can learn from an ebay purchase.
http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...tem424192.html

fearn · 23rd January 2008, 03:32 AM

Here's an another off-the-wall idea: it's a rochin, from the Matayoshi tradition of kobudo. I just saw this a few days ago, and thanks for bringing this thread up where I could make the connection.

Check out this YouTube video , and look at the weapon nearest the teacher's right knee. It's a long-handled, short-bladed, dao-like weapon about the length of the man's forearm, and the back is wavy. Matayoshi reportedly learned the weapon in China. For those interested, the "dao" rochin is discussed around 4:15 into the video.

Just a thought,

F

Tim Simmons · 23rd January 2008, 08:46 PM

fearn, interesting thought.
China does have a border with Afghanistan and India. The weapon in the video is very much heavier than the two knives we are looking at here so I would dismiss that as an origin. However there could be some link in the weapon from Oriental arms archive, ref- the guard as seen on many Chinese border lands Dha/Dao. I think you have really opened things. One could see a relation between the Nepalese sacrificial knife from a link in the thread, to the most recently post knife and mine. We could be looking at a meeting of south and east. The one with a guard does seem to suggest a utility knife or possible weapon.

In an earlier time without todays set political borders the Afghan/Chinese border would just be part of central Asia? does this add up?

The Nepalese sacrificial knife, just to refresh the memory. Think NE Nepal, Tibet, China and so on mixed up

http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...24192/en1.html

Tim Simmons · 23rd January 2008, 09:09 PM

Any idea what knives are used in the preparation of a sky burial? or am I really loosing it!!!!

Go to the section "disassembling the body" a few comments on the knife. Not very helpful but hint at a specialist tool?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial

Tim Simmons · 23rd January 2008, 10:26 PM

Before retiring for the night I would just like to add; you cannot deny that there is something here with the two examples shown.

katana · 23rd January 2008, 11:33 PM

Hi Tim,
did you notice this....

"......A kartika is a small, symbolic crescent knife or 'chopper', used in Buddhist ceremony. It symbolizes the severance of all material and worldly bonds and is crowned with a vajra or dorje, which is said to destroy ignorance, and leads to enlightenment. In Buddhist teachings, this tool is held in the right hand of Yama, the conqueror of death. It is also used in Feng Shui."

From this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartika_%28knife%29

And following on from that...
"....The Kartika (Skt.) or curved knife symbolises the cutting of conventional wisdom by the ultimate insight into emptiness. Is is usually present as a pair, together with the skullcup, filled with wisdom nectar. On a more simple level, the skull is a reminder of (our) impermanence. Between the knife and the handle is a makara-head, a mythical monster.[23]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6d

The chopper is one of the most prominent weapons used by Buddhism's angry deities, both male and female. Continuously brandished by them or simply carried in their hands, its purpose is to chop up disbelievers.

This curved flaying-knife is modeled on the Indian ' knife of the butchers', used for skinning animal hides. The gibbous crescent of its blade, which terminates in a sharp point or curved hook, combines the flaying implements of a cutting-knife and scraping blade, and the piercing activity of a dagger or pulling-hook. The blade's crescent is used for cutting through flesh and scraping it clean, separating the outer and inner as 'appearance and emptiness'. The sharp hook or point of the blade is used for the more delicate acts of flaying: the initial incising of the carcass, the pulling out of veins and tendons, and cutting around the orifices of the skin.

Regards David

5th October 2007, 04:53 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper? Is this Asian? 44cm long in total, blade 22cm. If so where from? Any information would be very helpful. This is a follow on from this thread. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5314

23rd January 2008, 08:46 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	fearn, interesting thought. China does have a border with Afghanistan and India. The weapon in the video is very much heavier than the two knives we are looking at here so I would dismiss that as an origin. However there could be some link in the weapon from Oriental arms archive, ref- the guard as seen on many Chinese border lands Dha/Dao. I think you have really opened things. One could see a relation between the Nepalese sacrificial knife from a link in the thread, to the most recently post knife and mine. We could be looking at a meeting of south and east. The one with a guard does seem to suggest a utility knife or possible weapon. In an earlier time without todays set political borders the Afghan/Chinese border would just be part of central Asia? does this add up? The Nepalese sacrificial knife, just to refresh the memory. Think NE Nepal, Tibet, China and so on mixed up http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...24192/en1.html Last edited by Tim Simmons; 23rd January 2008 at 09:26 PM.

23rd January 2008, 09:09 PM	#9
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Any idea what knives are used in the preparation of a sky burial? or am I really loosing it!!!! Go to the section "disassembling the body" a few comments on the knife. Not very helpful but hint at a specialist tool? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial Last edited by Tim Simmons; 23rd January 2008 at 09:19 PM.

23rd January 2008, 11:33 PM	#11
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Tim, did you notice this.... "......A kartika is a small, symbolic crescent knife or 'chopper', used in Buddhist ceremony. It symbolizes the severance of all material and worldly bonds and is crowned with a vajra or dorje, which is said to destroy ignorance, and leads to enlightenment. In Buddhist teachings, this tool is held in the right hand of Yama, the conqueror of death. It is also used in Feng Shui." From this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartika_%28knife%29 And following on from that... "....The Kartika (Skt.) or curved knife symbolises the cutting of conventional wisdom by the ultimate insight into emptiness. Is is usually present as a pair, together with the skullcup, filled with wisdom nectar. On a more simple level, the skull is a reminder of (our) impermanence. Between the knife and the handle is a makara-head, a mythical monster.[23]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6d The chopper is one of the most prominent weapons used by Buddhism's angry deities, both male and female. Continuously brandished by them or simply carried in their hands, its purpose is to chop up disbelievers. This curved flaying-knife is modeled on the Indian ' knife of the butchers', used for skinning animal hides. The gibbous crescent of its blade, which terminates in a sharp point or curved hook, combines the flaying implements of a cutting-knife and scraping blade, and the piercing activity of a dagger or pulling-hook. The blade's crescent is used for cutting through flesh and scraping it clean, separating the outer and inner as 'appearance and emptiness'. The sharp hook or point of the blade is used for the more delicate acts of flaying: the initial incising of the carcass, the pulling out of veins and tendons, and cutting around the orifices of the skin. Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 23rd January 2008 at 11:51 PM.

5th October 2007, 07:32 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Sorted

5th October 2007, 09:12 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That's a pretty little Mak, isn't it? Maks are essentially glaives and should be held in both hands. I just try to imagine a midget wielding it and.... Where is the Snow White?

5th October 2007, 09:49 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ooooo! Here comes mak the knife Nice piece you have there Tim. Lew

6th October 2007, 01:15 AM	#5
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I almost looks like a ram dao to me but the curve goes the wrong way and there is no eye inscription

6th October 2007, 11:39 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I think it is a Ram Dao. Specific to the worship of Kali. The black wood being relevent to this purpose. The example in the link is very nice with the white Ivory symbolic of Shiva. It is really quite amazing what one can learn from an ebay purchase. http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...tem424192.html

23rd January 2008, 03:32 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Here's an another off-the-wall idea: it's a rochin, from the Matayoshi tradition of kobudo. I just saw this a few days ago, and thanks for bringing this thread up where I could make the connection. Check out this YouTube video , and look at the weapon nearest the teacher's right knee. It's a long-handled, short-bladed, dao-like weapon about the length of the man's forearm, and the back is wavy. Matayoshi reportedly learned the weapon in China. For those interested, the "dao" rochin is discussed around 4:15 into the video. Just a thought, F

23rd January 2008, 10:26 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Before retiring for the night I would just like to add; you cannot deny that there is something here with the two examples shown.