The Moro Sabre: Questioning the Reason for its Existence

CharlesS · 19th July 2014, 04:58 PM

Recently we have seen several examples of what has generally come to be called the "Moro sabre". There have been a couple of threads about this. Please see: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...brehlight=moro

These are shown with a variety(in size, width, and quality) of curved blades, including some foreign blades, and typically with a standard kriss style hilt. Their scabbards generally borrow from both the kriss and the pira(lower portion "shoe" style end).

Their blades have been "Moro-ized"(to borrow a term from Vandoo) with an added ganja and typically a baca-baca.

The example I have pictured below needed some restoration to its wood, rattan, and hilt wrap, but is ready for a more detailed look now.

I have to say from the start, that I am not impressed by the quality of the sword at all. The pommel sits at an odd angle on the hilt. The ganja is crudely attached to the blade(compare this to krisses whose ganjas are fitted so perfectly they are almost invisible!) The chiseled lower guard or "gandik"(Indonesian term for that area of the blade) is very poorly executed. The blade(of homogenous steel) has a shallow, moderately well executed, fuller to each side. There are what I believe to be talismanic punches and chiseling to each side.

The scabbard borrows an older style kriss wrangka of excellent quality and carving and adds it to a remainder that is much more lightweight wood with a pira scabbard style 'shoe' end. The scabbard is heavily bound with rattan.

This all brings me to my question for discussion: With an arsenal of other blades(the kriss; the pira; the barong; and the bangkung) that are clearly superior in quality and aesthetics...exactly what is the purpose of this lightweight curved sword??

It certainly seems to be a 20th century piece. As a stabber it is inferior to the barong, pira, and especially earlier krisses. As a slasher, or hacker, it is inferior to all Moro swords(consider the blade thickness is about 1/2 that of an average barong)! It is too light to be a good tool.

So...what does that leave us with??...perhaps a status piece?? Well, maybe, but with a scabbard from varied parts, and with a very average pommel and hilt??

Perhaps the influx of outside cultures with curved blades contributed to the need...more likely the desire...for something similar??

I realize that this sword is a rarer Moro type, but I do wonder about its purpose, as it seems to have no single advantage as a weapon, utilitarian or aesthetically, over any other Moro blade type. I would go so far as to argue it is the most inferior blade in the Moro arsenal, and, therefore, wonder about its reason for existence.

Hopefully we can begin a discussion on the origin of, and theorize on the reason for, these swords in the Moro arsenal.

(Side note: the baldric and tassels here do not appear to be born with the sword, but have clearly been with it a very long time, so I have left it undisturbed)

I look forward to your input.

Battara · 19th July 2014, 08:24 PM

One thought is that perhaps these blades were exotic to Moro's (as well as some Indonesians).

Another thought is that some of these could be gifts from traders, Europeans, Americans, etc.

Timo Nieminen · 19th July 2014, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

As a stabber it is inferior to the barong, pira, and especially earlier krisses. As a slasher, or hacker, it is inferior to all Moro swords(consider the blade thickness is about 1/2 that of an average barong)! It is too light to be a good tool.

As a weapon, it has three advantages:

1. Longer. Enough extra length compared to other common weapons so that the user can expect a significant advantage in reach. Some other Moro sabres are quite a bit longer than this one, but this one is long enough to benefit.

2. Lighter. Light means fast. Fast means you hit them before they hit you. Especially when combined with "longer", faster is good.

3. Thinner. Thinner means it cuts better, all else being the same. For this kind of sabre blade, you want the tip (say the last 15cm/6") to be very thin. The width of the blade at the tip maintains some strength while the blade thins. With a pointy tip, you have to keep the blade thicker at the tip or it becomes rather fragile.

It has three disadvantages:

i. Less stabby.

ii. More fragile.

iii. Depends more on skill. Lighter means that the weapon will have less energy and momentum (even if it has more speed). To take advantage of the thinner blade so as to actually cut better will take technique; can't just depend on the weight of the blade.

From a martial arts perspective, it looks fine. Designed for fighting at a longer range, and getting in the first blow. Would work especially well as a duelling sword with rules like first blood, against its photo-mates above.

Reminds me a little of the lightweight tulwars discussed in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=17903

How heavy is it?

KuKulzA28 · 20th July 2014, 12:12 AM

I'm with Timo in that it might be a perfectly fine weapon in the right hands...

My thought is that if the point of balance is appropriate for a blade of its weight and length it could still be a good fighter... now I don't know on average how the blade quality is, but it's indisputable that many Moro smiths could make quality blades...

The spine being 1/8" isn't too much of a problem for cutting (in and of itself)... my Legitimus Collins machete whose blade width tapers to a sharp point (like a pinute), definitely a spine thickness less than 1/4", cuts very well, the thin tip helps.. It is a very quick cutter... but I would trust my golok or laraw to chop through bone easier, with thicker, heavier blades...

I think maybe it was an exotic blade, perhaps Moros with more influence or connection with foreign Muslims might have encountered tulwars, shamshirs, etc. and may have desired something similar? Afterall piso podang weren't necessarily common blades but were definitely used in Sumatra and Borneo...

Battara · 20th July 2014, 01:13 AM

Although I still think there is an exotic nature to this type of saber for the Moros, you folks also have a point for being a special method of working this weapon in combat. A similar idea works for the kris with waves/luks all through the blade - only works in the hands of a specially skilled warrior or else it will bounce off within a second only with a minimum of cutting efficiency. Thus most combat kris preferred by Moro fighters are the straight ones.

CharlesS · 21st July 2014, 01:36 AM

Thanks for your input guys!

I had no thought about the advantages of the light blade and perhaps should take those into account.

I may have been too accustomed to the feel of a hefty, powerful blade when handling other Moro types and just expect the same on all!

19th July 2014, 04:58 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	The Moro Sabre: Questioning the Reason for its Existence Recently we have seen several examples of what has generally come to be called the "Moro sabre". There have been a couple of threads about this. Please see: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...brehlight=moro These are shown with a variety(in size, width, and quality) of curved blades, including some foreign blades, and typically with a standard kriss style hilt. Their scabbards generally borrow from both the kriss and the pira(lower portion "shoe" style end). Their blades have been "Moro-ized"(to borrow a term from Vandoo) with an added ganja and typically a baca-baca. The example I have pictured below needed some restoration to its wood, rattan, and hilt wrap, but is ready for a more detailed look now. I have to say from the start, that I am not impressed by the quality of the sword at all. The pommel sits at an odd angle on the hilt. The ganja is crudely attached to the blade(compare this to krisses whose ganjas are fitted so perfectly they are almost invisible!) The chiseled lower guard or "gandik"(Indonesian term for that area of the blade) is very poorly executed. The blade(of homogenous steel) has a shallow, moderately well executed, fuller to each side. There are what I believe to be talismanic punches and chiseling to each side. The scabbard borrows an older style kriss wrangka of excellent quality and carving and adds it to a remainder that is much more lightweight wood with a pira scabbard style 'shoe' end. The scabbard is heavily bound with rattan. This all brings me to my question for discussion: With an arsenal of other blades(the kriss; the pira; the barong; and the bangkung) that are clearly superior in quality and aesthetics...exactly what is the purpose of this lightweight curved sword?? It certainly seems to be a 20th century piece. As a stabber it is inferior to the barong, pira, and especially earlier krisses. As a slasher, or hacker, it is inferior to all Moro swords(consider the blade thickness is about 1/2 that of an average barong)! It is too light to be a good tool. So...what does that leave us with??...perhaps a status piece?? Well, maybe, but with a scabbard from varied parts, and with a very average pommel and hilt?? Perhaps the influx of outside cultures with curved blades contributed to the need...more likely the desire...for something similar?? I realize that this sword is a rarer Moro type, but I do wonder about its purpose, as it seems to have no single advantage as a weapon, utilitarian or aesthetically, over any other Moro blade type. I would go so far as to argue it is the most inferior blade in the Moro arsenal, and, therefore, wonder about its reason for existence. Hopefully we can begin a discussion on the origin of, and theorize on the reason for, these swords in the Moro arsenal. (Side note: the baldric and tassels here do not appear to be born with the sword, but have clearly been with it a very long time, so I have left it undisturbed) I look forward to your input. Attached Images Last edited by CharlesS; 19th July 2014 at 05:11 PM.

19th July 2014, 08:24 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	One thought is that perhaps these blades were exotic to Moro's (as well as some Indonesians). Another thought is that some of these could be gifts from traders, Europeans, Americans, etc.

20th July 2014, 12:12 AM	#4
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I'm with Timo in that it might be a perfectly fine weapon in the right hands... My thought is that if the point of balance is appropriate for a blade of its weight and length it could still be a good fighter... now I don't know on average how the blade quality is, but it's indisputable that many Moro smiths could make quality blades... The spine being 1/8" isn't too much of a problem for cutting (in and of itself)... my Legitimus Collins machete whose blade width tapers to a sharp point (like a pinute), definitely a spine thickness less than 1/4", cuts very well, the thin tip helps.. It is a very quick cutter... but I would trust my golok or laraw to chop through bone easier, with thicker, heavier blades... I think maybe it was an exotic blade, perhaps Moros with more influence or connection with foreign Muslims might have encountered tulwars, shamshirs, etc. and may have desired something similar? Afterall piso podang weren't necessarily common blades but were definitely used in Sumatra and Borneo...

20th July 2014, 01:13 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Although I still think there is an exotic nature to this type of saber for the Moros, you folks also have a point for being a special method of working this weapon in combat. A similar idea works for the kris with waves/luks all through the blade - only works in the hands of a specially skilled warrior or else it will bounce off within a second only with a minimum of cutting efficiency. Thus most combat kris preferred by Moro fighters are the straight ones.

21st July 2014, 01:36 AM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Thanks for your input guys! I had no thought about the advantages of the light blade and perhaps should take those into account. I may have been too accustomed to the feel of a hefty, powerful blade when handling other Moro types and just expect the same on all!