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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland
Posts: 242
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Hello,
I did recieved this hilt today . On this one no flying horse or dutch crown just this symbol. I there some one that can help me with the material , it,s ivory but i.m not sure what kind. The structure is verry closed. Thanks in advance, Danny |
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#2 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,222
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Maybe sperm whale ? (potvis in dutch)
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#3 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
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Hello, could you send a picture from the hole and its surrounding? guwaya |
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#4 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland
Posts: 242
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Hi Guwaya ,
Here a extra photo, Danny |
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#5 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 139
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Hi Danny,
Are you sure it is Ivory ? Have you made the traditional hot needle test? The lack of sharpness in the details make me think it could be molded. I may be totally wrong and in that case I apologize for such an iconoclastic view of your hilt. Regards Michel |
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#6 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland
Posts: 242
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Hi Michel,
No need to apologize, Indeed i did make the test and al that happens is a red hot needle that wil bend when i push i against the hilt. So no plastic or someting like it. |
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#7 | |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 45
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Hi Danny, Thank you for the extra photo. At the first view I thought as asomotif that it could be spermwhale ivory but now I think it is not as I am missing the bull's eye. I have no idea at the moment - sorry. Guwaya |
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#8 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,285
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Danny, I think it looks like Marine Ivory .
Note the interesting 'swirls' near the base in your first and second pictures I would not stake my life on it though !! ![]() |
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#9 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 928
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Also i think it's marine ivory
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#10 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands
Posts: 159
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Hi Danny,
Sure its marine ivory, most of madura ukiran are and it shows clouds so its marine. This one is from before 1825. Got it from Peter? Regards Michel, amsterdam |
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#11 |
(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: OKLAHOMA, USA
Posts: 3,138
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I HAVE SEEN SEVERAL HILTS SIMULAR TO THIS ONE. THEY HAVE ALL BEEN SMALLER THIN HILTS ,I HAVE NEVER SEEN A LARGE ROBUST ONE IN THIS EXACT FORM. I HAVE SEEN LARGER MORE ROBUST ONES CARVED FROM THE ENTIRE LARGE TOOTH BUT SIZE IS LIMITED USING WHALE TEETH AS THEY ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN ELEPHANT, HIPPO OR WALRUS IVORY. I SUSPECT THEY ARE MADE FROM ONE HALF OF A LARGE SPERM WHALE TOOTH. AS MENTIONED IVORY WAS NOT EASILY COME BY IN THESE AREAS SO MAKEING TWO HULU FROM ONE TOOTH WOULD HAVE BEEN VERY DESIRABLE FROM AN ECONOMIC REASON. OF MARINE IVORY THE TWO LARGEST ARE WALRUS AND SPERM WHALE ALL THE OTHER MARINE MAMMALS TEETH WOULD NOT BE LARGE ENOUGH TO MAKE SUCH A HILT EVEN FROM THE ENTIRE TOOTH (I DON'T CONSIDER HIPPO AS MARINE IVORY).
THE SPERM WHALE TOOTH IS HOLLOW AT THE BASE AND MOSTLY SOLID TOWARDS THE TIP, MANY HAVE A LARGE BLUNT TIP OFTEN LARGER THAN THE ROOT. THE TOOTH GROWS IN CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE A TREE DOES AND WOULD NOT HAVE THE CROSS HATCHING FOUND IN ELEPHANT TEETH OR THE CENTER HONEY COMB LOOK OF WALRUS IVORY. BONE DOES NOT HAVE CONCENTRIC RINGS LIKE YOUR HULU. IVORY WILL CHANGE COLOR IF BURIED ON LAND OR SEA, THERE ARE PLACES WHERE WHALE TEETH ARE FOUND ON THE SEA BOTTOM OR BURRIED ON BEACHES THAT HAVE CHANGED TO A COLOR SIMULAR TO YOUR EXAMPLE. THOSE TAKEN FROM LIVING ANIMALS DURING WHALEING ARE PURE WHITE BUT WOULD GRADUALLY CHANGE COLOR OVER THE YEARS AS A KERIS HANDLE WOULD ESPECIALLY IF USED AND HANDLED A LOT. ON THE SIDE OF YOUR HILT YOU SEE THE BULLSEYE WHICH LOOKS LIKE THE GROWTH RINGS FOUND IN SPERM WHALE TEETH AND FROM THE ORIENTATION THAT IS WHAT LEADS ME TO THINK IT WAS MADE FROM HALF A TOOTH. THE WEAR ON THE CARVEING AND THE COLOR LEADS ME TO AGREE THE HILT IS VERY LIKELY AN OLD ONE THAT WAS CARRIED AND HANDLED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. OFTEN WHALE TEETH WERE REFERRED TO AS FISH TEETH IN OLDER MORE SIMPLE TIMES. I HAVE SUCH A HILT BUT UNFORTUNATELY NO WAY TO TAKE PICTURES TO POST AT THIS TIME. I HOPE THIS HELPS AND THAT MY OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT. CONGRADULATIONS ON A NICE KERIS. ![]() |
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#12 |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Holland
Posts: 242
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Hi Vandoo,
Thanks for youre deep going explanation on the hilt. Personaly i also have the idea its a verry old one , because of the signs of wearing and handling this one. It,s not realy big , about 8.5 cm but it has a nice weight . what kind it is , i will just say if some one ask its sea ivory , but for know its standind quite nice on a madura keris at my home ![]() Regards, Danny |
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#13 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Italy
Posts: 928
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About hit material.... is possible to see some good pic of rhino horn hit???
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#14 |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 2,222
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I wonder if there are genuine rhino keris hilts.
But here is a nice thread on rhino : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=ivory+rhino |
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#15 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,091
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#16 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Singapore
Posts: 1,248
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This is an example on a Sumatran keris.. http://alamshah.fotopic.net/p56026159.html * see other pictures here. ![]() |
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