Strange indian hanger with (pseudo?) genoese marks

Gonzoadler · 24th September 2022, 07:07 PM

Hello,

I have this really strange dagger or hanger in my collection. I think it is from northern India because the silver fittings of the velvet covered scabbard reminds me of nepalese Kothimora-Kukris.
The handle is made of silver, too and the guard of brass. The blade is massive and seems to be older than the other parts of the weapon but was regrinded later. I think the whole thing was made in the late 19th c., but I ask me if it could be possible, that the blade is a fragment of a much older genoese blade, maybe 17th c. or earlier.
What do you think? All comments are very welcome.
The whole design of the piece reminds me a bit of german military "Faschinenmesser" but that is maybe a random fact.

Measurements:

total 48cm
without scabbard 47.5cm
blade 37cm

Regards
Robin

Gonzoadler · 24th September 2022, 07:09 PM

more pictures:

Rick · 24th September 2022, 08:42 PM

The scabbard chape appears to be upside down. Could this be a repurposed fitting from a decorative element of a different scabbard?

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 04:11 AM

While these 'sickle marks' are typically referred to as 'Genoan' that is from the numbers of North Italian blades with these marks that came out of Genoa as it was a port exporting them. Some actually had 'GENOA' stamped along with them which led to that association. The marks were used in varying cities in North Italy and often in multiples, variations and with other marks.

The 'sickle' mark was also notably used in Styrian centers, and as this does seem to be a 'Germanic' blade from a pioneer or auxiliary forces troop, that seems quite possible. The mounts on this blade are interesting. Possibly something for an officer in a 'Freikorps' unit in Austria? These were units based on the mid 18th c. 'pandours' of the Austrian army who favored exotic oriental fashion and weaponry.

In "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert (1962) in a panel of sword blade forms, that clipped point is termed 'pandour point'.

Bob A · 25th September 2022, 05:49 PM

Old blade, repurposed silver work on scabbard, odd and seemingly unused hilt, I don't see it as representative of any particular culture, rather an assemblage possibly completed in India for an aficionado of the eclectic.

I'm probably wrong, of course. Kinda pretty, for all that; certainly eye-catching.

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2022, 06:35 PM

European artisans were copying 'oriental' styling in sword mountings in the 18th century, especially with dark background and silver themes from the orient (shakudo and Tonquinese hilted small swords). I have seen Chinese and other forms produced in European weapon forms. The 'pandour' units inspired auxiliary and specialized units with this type theme using 'exotic' weapons and fashions in imitation of these in European armies into early 1800s. Napoleon was particularly fond of these type units, and his Zouave units even influenced the American military in the Civil War,

The British often favored 'oriental' (which included India and Middle East in that parlance) styles in their officers swords. There are many examples of 'foreign' forms and styling in these typically 'one off' specially commissioned weapons.

With this clearly German or Austrian style blade I still think it is an unusual example for an officer in a flamboyant style in the units described. This is most unusual however as this type of 'creation' is typically more expected with cavalry sabers, or officers swords with full length blades.

Rick · 25th September 2022, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob A

Old blade, repurposed silver work on scabbard, odd and seemingly unused hilt, I don't see it as representative of any particular culture, rather an assemblage possibly completed in India for an aficionado of the eclectic.

I'm probably wrong, of course. Kinda pretty, for all that; certainly eye-catching.

Birds don't sing upside down, and the shield motif on the other side of the chape is also upside down.

Makes no sense so I'll vote for a 'married' piece with Indian made blade.

24th September 2022, 07:07 PM	#1
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 244	Strange indian hanger with (pseudo?) genoese marks Hello, I have this really strange dagger or hanger in my collection. I think it is from northern India because the silver fittings of the velvet covered scabbard reminds me of nepalese Kothimora-Kukris. The handle is made of silver, too and the guard of brass. The blade is massive and seems to be older than the other parts of the weapon but was regrinded later. I think the whole thing was made in the late 19th c., but I ask me if it could be possible, that the blade is a fragment of a much older genoese blade, maybe 17th c. or earlier. What do you think? All comments are very welcome. The whole design of the piece reminds me a bit of german military "Faschinenmesser" but that is maybe a random fact. Measurements: total 48cm without scabbard 47.5cm blade 37cm Regards Robin Attached Images

24th September 2022, 07:09 PM	#2
Gonzoadler Member Join Date: Jun 2020 Location: Germany Posts: 244	more pictures: Attached Images

24th September 2022, 08:42 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	The scabbard chape appears to be upside down. Could this be a repurposed fitting from a decorative element of a different scabbard?

25th September 2022, 04:11 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	While these 'sickle marks' are typically referred to as 'Genoan' that is from the numbers of North Italian blades with these marks that came out of Genoa as it was a port exporting them. Some actually had 'GENOA' stamped along with them which led to that association. The marks were used in varying cities in North Italy and often in multiples, variations and with other marks. The 'sickle' mark was also notably used in Styrian centers, and as this does seem to be a 'Germanic' blade from a pioneer or auxiliary forces troop, that seems quite possible. The mounts on this blade are interesting. Possibly something for an officer in a 'Freikorps' unit in Austria? These were units based on the mid 18th c. 'pandours' of the Austrian army who favored exotic oriental fashion and weaponry. In "Schwert Degen Sabel" by Gerhard Seifert (1962) in a panel of sword blade forms, that clipped point is termed 'pandour point'.

25th September 2022, 05:49 PM	#5
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	Old blade, repurposed silver work on scabbard, odd and seemingly unused hilt, I don't see it as representative of any particular culture, rather an assemblage possibly completed in India for an aficionado of the eclectic. I'm probably wrong, of course. Kinda pretty, for all that; certainly eye-catching.

25th September 2022, 06:35 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,944	European artisans were copying 'oriental' styling in sword mountings in the 18th century, especially with dark background and silver themes from the orient (shakudo and Tonquinese hilted small swords). I have seen Chinese and other forms produced in European weapon forms. The 'pandour' units inspired auxiliary and specialized units with this type theme using 'exotic' weapons and fashions in imitation of these in European armies into early 1800s. Napoleon was particularly fond of these type units, and his Zouave units even influenced the American military in the Civil War, The British often favored 'oriental' (which included India and Middle East in that parlance) styles in their officers swords. There are many examples of 'foreign' forms and styling in these typically 'one off' specially commissioned weapons. With this clearly German or Austrian style blade I still think it is an unusual example for an officer in a flamboyant style in the units described. This is most unusual however as this type of 'creation' is typically more expected with cavalry sabers, or officers swords with full length blades.