Persian Qajar Dagger

[Dom]

Hi everybody
may I introduce you my last "input"

since few time, this dagger reached my home
- Indo-Persian dagger from "Qajar era" 18/19th century
it is in metal, steel?, with inlaid copper fillets
I guess that this blade is a variety of "Persian Johar"
it's the so-called "Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"
I hope from your sagacity and expertise, to light on ... me

it has three inscriptions, 2 on the ricasso,
classical religious invocations (Shiite) YA ALI and YA ALLAH
too easy to translate, but the one on the heel of the guard,
it's in "Farsi" and we cannot translate it (hopefully, not found "made ​​in China" )

the handle as well as the scabbard, are covered by hunting scenes,
with a real catalog for all kind of animals, and even fish

the length is 35 cm (13,80 in)
the blade is 19 cm (7,48 in)
weight 780 gr (27,50 ozt)

please be free, to give yours comments, appreciations,
and more specially your critics, it's those last one, the most constructive

best regards

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Hi Dom,

Although the quality of the chiselled decoration on the scabbard and hilt are far superior to most, the style and construction along with the seeming absence of wear or patination make me think that this is a modern piece.

ATB
Gene

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dom,

Although the quality of the chiselled decoration on the scabbard and hilt are far superior to most, the style and construction along with the seeming absence of wear or patination make me think that this is a modern piece.

ATB
Gene

Hi Gene
last ruler "Qajar" ; 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
that mean not more than 110 years ... generation for my parents (father/mother) ... modern time
in absence of "johar" I should have ignored this dagger ...
but it's not "modern" this "johar" or an "Indian duplicate"

also the "patina" on weapons less than 300/400 years, it's more grime than something "noble"
I respect too much, all those edged weapons, and I can't display here, a weapons not "cleaned" ...
Gene, have a look to those daggers http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16513
I have certainly not claim to have a dagger with museum quality,
but they are presented "intact," no traces or marks, of wear
... so ... modern copies?? I do not think so, all are old

anyway, thanks to have criticized and argumented your remarks

regards

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Gene
last ruler "Qajar" ; 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
that mean not more than 110 years ... generation for my parents (father/mother) ... modern time
in absence of "johar" I should have ignored this dagger ...
but it's not "modern" this "johar" or an "Indian duplicate"

also the "patina" on weapons less than 300/400 years, it's more grime than something "noble"
I respect too much, all those edged weapons, and I can't display here, a weapons not "cleaned" ...

anyway, thanks to have criticized and argumented your remarks

regards

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

The chiselled steel of the hilt and scabbard is first rate. Very nice work.

When you say 'Johar' do you use the term to mean Wootz or pattern welded steel?
The blade on your attractive dagger appears to be layered steel, 'semi' pattern welded. Midway between visible wide waves of lamination and the fully realised "raindrops" of the pattern below.

Do you mean that you have fully cleaned the 'patina' off of the dagger?

ATB
G

P.S. it's not meant to be "criticism" Dom.
Some nice ear-rings in that link BTW

[Atlantia]

Hi Dom,

Cross posting via edits!
I agree that the daggers in that thread are in superb condition.

But I still see much ageing and patina that I do not see on yours.

When I think of late Qajar Khanjar I think of them being more akin to this form:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16020

The attachment loops on your example reminds me of Arabian Jambiya.
The flat ground oval/diamond section blade with the more simple carved deoration and two colour koftgari look Indian (and show only minimal wear to the silver).
The more complex decoration of the scabbard and hilt have an indo-persian feel but exhibit no patina/oxidisation in the recesses and in general the piece seems like a 'fusion' of styles. but a distinctly 'Indian' feel IMVHO.

I'm certain I've seen another somewhere. I just can't recollect where.
Can you reference this type to dated examples?

[Dom]

with .. one stone, I'll shoot two birds

Originally Posted by Atlantia

P.S. it's not meant to be "criticism" Dom.
Some nice ear-rings in that link BTW

the perpetual misunderstanding (joke) between "froggy" and "roast-beef"
about "criticize" there are two kinds; negatives and positives
it was the last one, was going my comments
we have two languages, very close to each one, but some terms very similar leave the place to some light different interpretation

don't speak too much about ear-rings, when you said nice,
the word is weak, but if my wife saw that ...
it's me at this moment I will be a weak man

concerning, second post ...

Originally Posted by Atlantia

When I think of late Qajar Khanjar I think of them being more akin to this form:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16020

yes it's a "Qajar" khanjar, but due to miss care, his condition is very poor, oxidation and pitting due to rust, not to his age
a "noble" patina, as far as I know, must be "green" or "brown"

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The attachment loops on your example reminds me of Arabian Jambiya.
The flat ground oval/diamond section blade with the more simple carved deoration and two colour koftgari look Indian (and show only minimal wear to the silver).

I don't denied that there is a very strong influence between, Persia and India
I have an other Persian khanjar, same era, with a oval/diamond section blade, not "johar", and not Indian,
but it's need a serious refurbishing, that means this type of blade wasn't rare (pic attached)

Originally Posted by Atlantia

The more complex decoration of the scabbard and hilt have an indo-persian feel but exhibit no patina/oxidisation in the recesses and in general the piece seems like a 'fusion' of styles. but a distinctly 'Indian' feel IMVHO.

you mean by that, an edged weapon, without rust (please don't talk about patina, you know my POV ), and plenty dirt, must be a modern production ... interesting ...
but I don't share the concept

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'm certain I've seen another somewhere. I just can't recollect where.
Can you reference this type to dated examples?

the dating for the Qajar Dynasty era, it's the most simple, because recent, and very well documented
1st Qajar - 1786 - juin 1797 : Agha Mohammad Shah
last Qajar - 16 juillet 1909 - 31 octobre 1925 : Ahmad Shah
nothing before, and nothing after

by the way, I think to have identified the kind of "johar" with the book "Swords & Armour" "weapons of the Islamic World",
and I'm not to much convince that the wootz, of my blade it's the same, that you show

I love that kind of exchange,
very good opportunity to argument, in function of our reciprocal knowledge, and sensibility, thank you Gene

à +

Dom

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Dom,
I think some are silent because this is a difficult one to call. It is a nicely executed piece and certainly worthy of a place in any collection but I can see where both sides are coming from. It has to me an Indian feel but not necessarily recent. Some of your photographs suggest that the patina/dirt has maybe been overcleaned, see the photo I have attached, it has signs of age in the corners. I hope experienced members will come in and maybe give you a more definitive answer. Regardless of 'age' it is a nice dagger I would be happy to own.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi everybody
may I introduce you my last "input"

since few time, this dagger reached my home
- Indo-Persian dagger from "Qajar era" 18/19th century
it is in metal, steel?, with inlaid copper fillets
I guess that this blade is a variety of "Persian Johar"
it's the so-called "Qara Kharasan" or either "Qara Toban Johar"
I hope from your sagacity and expertise, to light on ... me

it has three inscriptions, 2 on the ricasso,
classical religious invocations (Shiite) YA ALI and YA ALLAH
too easy to translate, but the one on the heel of the guard,
it's in "Farsi" and we cannot translate it (hopefully, not found "made ​​in China" )

the handle as well as the scabbard, are covered by hunting scenes,
with a real catalog for all kind of animals, and even fish

the length is 35 cm (13,80 in)
the blade is 19 cm (7,48 in)
weight 780 gr (27,50 ozt)

please be free, to give yours comments, appreciations,
and more specially your critics, it's those last one, the most constructive

best regards

à +

Dom

Salaams Dom ~ Greetings and just a quick word on the decoration on the Hilt and Scabbard that I suspect is Persian ... Noahs Arc... I think it shows the Arc and its ramps on the hilt...I would say Qajar but no idea when.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Dom]

Hi Norman - Salam Alaykum Ibrahim
Thanks to have given your opinions

about age, I have no illusion,
the "Qajar dynasty" was stopped in 1925, that means ± 87 years ...
so the last "Qajar" is so to speak, contemporary

at least, since the beginning this point for me it's clear,
it's a modern/ancient khanjar

all the best

à +

Dom

[AJ1356]

DOM,
I've been looking over the inscription many times but unfortunetly I can not make out anything of it. Otherwise it is a very nice find, as far as Johar/Jawhar, I believe that is referred to wootz, yours seems to be Damascus steel.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by AJ1356

DOM,
I've been looking over the inscription many times but unfortunetly I can not make out anything of it. Otherwise it is a very nice find, as far as Johar/Jawhar, I believe that is referred to wootz, yours seems to be Damascus steel.

Salam my Bro.
Goddammit ...
I was having a full hope, to have the translation from you
hard luck ... but it's the life ...
anyway, thanks a lot to have took the time, to try a translation,
you're a good mate
all the best

à +

Dom

[AJ1356]

DOM,
I have not given up on it bro, but I have/am doing alot of (unwanted)traveling right now so I am not really in one place for long right now. As soo as I get a chance, I'll try to write down whatever it says, sometimes that helps.