The development of the Indian katar

Jens Nordlunde · 20th September 2015, 09:23 PM

Have any of you given it a thought how the Indian katar developed?
Could it be, that you wait for the 'experts' to answer this question, or have you given it a thought yourself?
I think it would be interesting to see who has given this a tought.
Jens

Edward F · 20th September 2015, 11:41 PM

Never realy gave it much thought not an item I collect.I think the indian katar is one of a kind don't think their are any other types of punch daggers from other places.why was the katar developed?Most likely out of necessity The katar would be the soldiers secondary weapon a knive would not work well against chain mail but the katar with punching blow could penetrate the chain mail.Some say they were made from broken swords parts.

I feel like its a test hope I got something right.

Timo Nieminen · 21st September 2015, 12:31 PM

I haven't previously considered it. My first thoughts are that it developed from parrying weapons with a spiked knucklebow. I haven't looked to see if there are surviving spiked knucklebow weapons of sufficient age, but IIRC katars with one or two side blades are relatively old for katars.

Getting rid of side blades makes the katar easier to carry, and I think will make it easier to use in very close combat.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st September 2015, 01:15 PM

Ok, I will tell you what I have found so far.
Ibn Battuta who travelled in India during the first half of the 15th century described one, and for a long time it was considered to be the first description of a katar.
Mitra, Rajendralala in his book The Antiquities of Orissa, vol. I. The Government of India, 1875. Reprint Indian Studies, Culcutta, 1961, shows a drawing of an even earlier katar.
The katar is drawn from a frize on a Gauri temple, and the temple was build in the 10th or 11th century - it is no 205 on the plate.
When you see thjis katar, it is easy to see how much it has developed.
The plate shows weapons used at the time, and drawn from different figures decorating the many temples there.

Pukka Bundook · 21st September 2015, 02:56 PM

Good morning Jens,

To see a depiction of such an early katar is Very interesting!
Although we have talked on katars over the years, I have nothing solid to contribute.
My thoughts are that in India, much thought was put into production of weapons. This thought likely came to the (correct) conclusion that a thrust /punch in-line with the forearm is more powerful than one at an angle to it, hence the katar came into being.
Now; I have always wondered Why some early katars have a single bar to grip? The mechanical leverage is so poor, that I do not understand this.
The Very early example above could possibly work for slicing/slashing, but could easily double back on itself in a thrust.
Side -bars would appear ideal for parrying, but the grip needed developing into wider 2-3 or more bars for control.
I apologise if this is a digression, but if a person made a katar with a single bar to grip, and actually tried it to see how it felt in the hand, would not common sense say that the this grip needed refining to control the weapon in use?
This in no way answers your question, and again my apologies!

Richard.

Jens Nordlunde · 21st September 2015, 03:39 PM

Richard, nice to hear from you.
You are right about the missing side guards and the single cross bar.
You do however sometimes see one cross bar only, even on newer katars like 18th to early 19th century, but they also have side guards which gives a better stability.
This is the earliest katar I have seen or heard of, so I dont know what it looked like fifty or a hundred years earlier, but it must have been a very early form.

Jim McDougall · 21st September 2015, 04:38 PM

I have always very much admired those collectors and scholars who focus on a singular weapon form or often that field alone. It is these individuals who inherently become authorities on these topics through constant exposure to varying examples and study channeled toward that field.

Jens, is one of these remarkable individuals, who has tenaciously pursued the study of the katar, along with the tulwar, and though he will humbly resist such acclaim, I have always considered him a foremost authority on these arms.

It is fascinating to see this discussion opened on katars, as quite frankly, they have stood among daggers as a unique, unusual and distinct form almost complacently by collectors. It seems that though remarkably unusual in being one of the very few, if not virtually only, venerated instances of a dagger using a transverse grip....there has been no thorough study of their development or history.

The only discussion or noteworthy observations seem typically toward the sword associated with the katar by its transverse grips, the pata, and suggestions on its relation to the dagger form.

It seems of course that the katar developed in Southern India, and it has seemed to me that the weapon began as a slashing weapon. The thrust if I recall correctly, was much disfavored by the Mahratta's and thus may be considered a widely held distinction in combat with daggers and swords.
With this being the case, the transverse grip would have served well in holding the weapon securely in slashing moves.

This very early katar shown by Jens in this fascinating and remarkably revealing illustration, shows a bladed weapon which essentially is a blade with a handle which seems sufficient for slashing, but certainly not thrusting. The incredibly early date suggested by the context in which this is found is compelling and plausibly tempting to presume this to be a prototype for the long enduring dynasty of Indian transverse grip edged weapons..the katar and the pata.

Elgood ("Hindu Arms and Ritual", p.97, 8.58) shows a gauntlet type pata he classifies the earliest known example and from c.1570. On page 149 he notes the evolution of the gauntlet type sword as having evolved from the katars with this defensive feature. These are primarily from Tanjore regions but of course, in India, weapon forms like most of the diversity of India itself, diffused widely.

With these understandings, the questions I have always asked are:

Did the katar as a slashing weapon, and its diffusion to the northern regions perhaps become a thrusting weapon? In discussions over the years, the clearly reinforced armour piercing blades suggest they may have been intended to pierce mail.

Did the katar evolve into 'pata' to extend its reach due to use by mounted warriors? In more modern times, the Mahratta use these in mock combat performances and ceremonies as paired slashing weapons with the effect almost windmill like. Perhaps these were used as slashing weapons by infantry as well?

The remarkably early and quite simple example shown in the book on Orissan antiquities is indeed compelling, but the inevitable question is of course, can this iconographic evidence be relied upon in the estimated date of the context ? Can we be sure of the date/period suggested for these friezes? or is it possible they are work entered later? In India I believe that temples and their associated works are essentially a constantly vibrant and dynamic feature, so it seems possible this could be a later rendering or addition.

Outstanding and long overdue broader attention to one of the most intriguing edged weapons!!!

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2015, 04:10 PM

Ian,
Maybe someone on this forum can help you to find out which language it is http://forum.wordreference.com/forum...-languages.99/
Jens

Emanuel · 25th September 2015, 04:53 PM

Thank you Jens, I just ordered the book

For additional pictorial evidence, I suggest that everyone peruse the reproductions so helpfully made available on the Wikipedia media commons for a variety of Indian illustrated manuscripts.

The majority appear to me 16th century and later, but perhaps there are some earlier ones that may include depictions of jamadhars.

Emanuel

Jens Nordlunde · 25th September 2015, 05:17 PM

Emanuel,
You are right, that the miniatures are a very good source, but many of the early ones, if you can find them, dont show any weapons.
Like the very early travellers comming to India saw weapons they had never seen before, but they did not describe them, and they did not draw them - a pity.
The very early temples is a good place to start, as long as they were not ruined during the many wars between the HIndu's and the Muslim's.
In some cases you as a collector will have to make the choice, do you want the weapon, or do you want the book, which can give you an insight into how the world was at the time.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2015, 09:59 PM

It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion.

Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago

so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c.

Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further,

Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies.

The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons.

Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th September 2015, 12:52 AM

I add..an unusual little postage stamp. The Katar is from http://islamic-arts.org/2012/arms-an...islamic-world/

Description;Quote" A KOFTGARI KATAR AND SCABBARD, INDIA, CIRCA 18TH CENTURY.
The steel blade fullered with swollen tip, hilt with double grip and decorated throughout with gold overlaid inscriptions and floral motifs, the scabbard with chape decorated ensuite". Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th September 2015, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion.

Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago

so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c.

Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further,

Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies.

The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons.

Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.

Salaams Jim, Indeed the system seems to have been used in certain parts of India and by the famous warlike Rajput warriors... but... it is also a Kerala weapon and used in their ancient martial style (kalaripayattu) Usually weapons in old martial systems go back a very long way...It may not always be the case but it may be a clue to the weapon being much older than we may initially have thought..and perhaps a clue to its origin?

..Please see https://www.keralatourism.org/video-...rtial-art/246/ for a demonstration that includes this weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

20th September 2015, 09:23 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	The development of the Indian katar Have any of you given it a thought how the Indian katar developed? Could it be, that you wait for the 'experts' to answer this question, or have you given it a thought yourself? I think it would be interesting to see who has given this a tought. Jens Attached Images

20th September 2015, 11:41 PM	#2
Edward F Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 54	katar developed Never realy gave it much thought not an item I collect.I think the indian katar is one of a kind don't think their are any other types of punch daggers from other places.why was the katar developed?Most likely out of necessity The katar would be the soldiers secondary weapon a knive would not work well against chain mail but the katar with punching blow could penetrate the chain mail.Some say they were made from broken swords parts. I feel like its a test hope I got something right.

21st September 2015, 01:15 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ok, I will tell you what I have found so far. Ibn Battuta who travelled in India during the first half of the 15th century described one, and for a long time it was considered to be the first description of a katar. Mitra, Rajendralala in his book The Antiquities of Orissa, vol. I. The Government of India, 1875. Reprint Indian Studies, Culcutta, 1961, shows a drawing of an even earlier katar. The katar is drawn from a frize on a Gauri temple, and the temple was build in the 10th or 11th century - it is no 205 on the plate. When you see thjis katar, it is easy to see how much it has developed. The plate shows weapons used at the time, and drawn from different figures decorating the many temples there. Attached Images

21st September 2015, 03:39 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Richard, nice to hear from you. You are right about the missing side guards and the single cross bar. You do however sometimes see one cross bar only, even on newer katars like 18th to early 19th century, but they also have side guards which gives a better stability. This is the earliest katar I have seen or heard of, so I dont know what it looked like fifty or a hundred years earlier, but it must have been a very early form. Attached Images

26th September 2015, 12:52 AM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I add..an unusual little postage stamp. The Katar is from http://islamic-arts.org/2012/arms-an...islamic-world/ Description;Quote" A KOFTGARI KATAR AND SCABBARD, INDIA, CIRCA 18TH CENTURY. The steel blade fullered with swollen tip, hilt with double grip and decorated throughout with gold overlaid inscriptions and floral motifs, the scabbard with chape decorated ensuite". Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Attached Images

21st September 2015, 12:31 PM	#3
Timo Nieminen Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 422	I haven't previously considered it. My first thoughts are that it developed from parrying weapons with a spiked knucklebow. I haven't looked to see if there are surviving spiked knucklebow weapons of sufficient age, but IIRC katars with one or two side blades are relatively old for katars. Getting rid of side blades makes the katar easier to carry, and I think will make it easier to use in very close combat.

21st September 2015, 02:56 PM	#5
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Good morning Jens, To see a depiction of such an early katar is Very interesting! Although we have talked on katars over the years, I have nothing solid to contribute. My thoughts are that in India, much thought was put into production of weapons. This thought likely came to the (correct) conclusion that a thrust /punch in-line with the forearm is more powerful than one at an angle to it, hence the katar came into being. Now; I have always wondered Why some early katars have a single bar to grip? The mechanical leverage is so poor, that I do not understand this. The Very early example above could possibly work for slicing/slashing, but could easily double back on itself in a thrust. Side -bars would appear ideal for parrying, but the grip needed developing into wider 2-3 or more bars for control. I apologise if this is a digression, but if a person made a katar with a single bar to grip, and actually tried it to see how it felt in the hand, would not common sense say that the this grip needed refining to control the weapon in use? This in no way answers your question, and again my apologies! Richard.

21st September 2015, 04:38 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	I have always very much admired those collectors and scholars who focus on a singular weapon form or often that field alone. It is these individuals who inherently become authorities on these topics through constant exposure to varying examples and study channeled toward that field. Jens, is one of these remarkable individuals, who has tenaciously pursued the study of the katar, along with the tulwar, and though he will humbly resist such acclaim, I have always considered him a foremost authority on these arms. It is fascinating to see this discussion opened on katars, as quite frankly, they have stood among daggers as a unique, unusual and distinct form almost complacently by collectors. It seems that though remarkably unusual in being one of the very few, if not virtually only, venerated instances of a dagger using a transverse grip....there has been no thorough study of their development or history. The only discussion or noteworthy observations seem typically toward the sword associated with the katar by its transverse grips, the pata, and suggestions on its relation to the dagger form. It seems of course that the katar developed in Southern India, and it has seemed to me that the weapon began as a slashing weapon. The thrust if I recall correctly, was much disfavored by the Mahratta's and thus may be considered a widely held distinction in combat with daggers and swords. With this being the case, the transverse grip would have served well in holding the weapon securely in slashing moves. This very early katar shown by Jens in this fascinating and remarkably revealing illustration, shows a bladed weapon which essentially is a blade with a handle which seems sufficient for slashing, but certainly not thrusting. The incredibly early date suggested by the context in which this is found is compelling and plausibly tempting to presume this to be a prototype for the long enduring dynasty of Indian transverse grip edged weapons..the katar and the pata. Elgood ("Hindu Arms and Ritual", p.97, 8.58) shows a gauntlet type pata he classifies the earliest known example and from c.1570. On page 149 he notes the evolution of the gauntlet type sword as having evolved from the katars with this defensive feature. These are primarily from Tanjore regions but of course, in India, weapon forms like most of the diversity of India itself, diffused widely. With these understandings, the questions I have always asked are: Did the katar as a slashing weapon, and its diffusion to the northern regions perhaps become a thrusting weapon? In discussions over the years, the clearly reinforced armour piercing blades suggest they may have been intended to pierce mail. Did the katar evolve into 'pata' to extend its reach due to use by mounted warriors? In more modern times, the Mahratta use these in mock combat performances and ceremonies as paired slashing weapons with the effect almost windmill like. Perhaps these were used as slashing weapons by infantry as well? The remarkably early and quite simple example shown in the book on Orissan antiquities is indeed compelling, but the inevitable question is of course, can this iconographic evidence be relied upon in the estimated date of the context ? Can we be sure of the date/period suggested for these friezes? or is it possible they are work entered later? In India I believe that temples and their associated works are essentially a constantly vibrant and dynamic feature, so it seems possible this could be a later rendering or addition. Outstanding and long overdue broader attention to one of the most intriguing edged weapons!!!

25th September 2015, 04:10 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ian, Maybe someone on this forum can help you to find out which language it is http://forum.wordreference.com/forum...-languages.99/ Jens

25th September 2015, 04:53 PM	#9
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Thank you Jens, I just ordered the book For additional pictorial evidence, I suggest that everyone peruse the reproductions so helpfully made available on the Wikipedia media commons for a variety of Indian illustrated manuscripts. The majority appear to me 16th century and later, but perhaps there are some earlier ones that may include depictions of jamadhars. Emanuel

25th September 2015, 05:17 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Emanuel, You are right, that the miniatures are a very good source, but many of the early ones, if you can find them, dont show any weapons. Like the very early travellers comming to India saw weapons they had never seen before, but they did not describe them, and they did not draw them - a pity. The very early temples is a good place to start, as long as they were not ruined during the many wars between the HIndu's and the Muslim's. In some cases you as a collector will have to make the choice, do you want the weapon, or do you want the book, which can give you an insight into how the world was at the time. Jens

25th September 2015, 09:59 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,941	It is wonderful to see this thread advancing, and thanks Ian, Fernando and Emanuel for the great additions and images of iconography pertinent to our discussion. Jens, I must be more careful in my wordings, as I know full well that the katar began in southern regions, I learned that from you many years ago so I must have misspoken suggesting Rajput origins. It does seem that the Rajputs along with the diffusion of these distinctive daggers throughout India, of course used them most notably, but not until 16th c. Thank you again for responding on my ideas on the use of the carvings in monuments and temples, friezes etc. as benchmarks to establish the timeline for these weapons. It is indeed most unfortunate that so many have been destroyed or lost to natural deterioration, but it seems that the number of archaeological sites is considerable so there is still hope that something more will turn up. I know that you are always vigilant in watching for obscure resources and references with these........and hopefully as more of join in looking for these we might find key examples further, Ibrahiim, thank you for adding the online data which often turns up in these searches. These references have of course a mixture of valid and pertinent data combined with some unspecified in source material, but all serves as a good benchmark toward comprehensive perspective on these studies. The very innovative weapons such as firearms in edged weapons in India are fascinating , and follow these same kinds of combination arms which are often seen in European context. It seems these are in most cases more one off type weapons created to impress the noble and wealthy patrons of armourers, and not necessarily regularly produced and issued weapons. Getting back to the katar, we seem to have exhausted most early sources and artistic representations in the Indian context, however the search goes on. Possibly other narratives from those in other cultures (we already have Arab accounts from ibn Battuta) such as Persian , Chinese or other might have observations or descriptions of these in early context.