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#1 |
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Join Date: May 2017
Location: France
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Hi all,
I've discussed the Mexican machete / so called "espada ancha" a bit in the last few days, and it got me thinking : what was the last traditional (non military / regulation / issued) sword used by Europeans or Europeans descent in colonial states? The Spanish colonial short swords mentioned above might be a good contender, but I'm curious if there is others I don't know about. Thanks in advance for your opinion! 🙂 |
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#2 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Intriguing topic! but not sure of exactly what you are looking into.
By colonies...do you mean Spanish? therefore Spaniards? Mexico was Spain until 1821. However in the colonial context, as with most such situations, was nominally administrated by the government in Spain, which had loosely standing regulations on weapons. While 'regulation patterns' were used of course by soldiers of the military, these were hardly definitive , for example the regulation military sword on 1721, was still use when regulations revised (?) in 1769-1772. America was of course a British colony until 1783, but had no standing army until the Revolution and Great Britain had no regulation swords until 1796. British regulations however described certain weapons earlier, such as the infantry hangers of mid 18th c. which were actually copies of German forms and known from depictions of uniforms which set the dates of them. If we are going for Spanish/colonial/Mexico, here is an example of a 'military' cutlass of c. 1860s of Republic of Mexico. While the hilt is of US M1840 cavalry saber form (taken from earlier French hilts) , the blade is broad and heavy recalling the espada ancha rather than the long curved saber blades typical of these cavalry sabers. Traditional? of course, recalling the notably traditional espada ancha Military/ probably, used likely by government forces Regulation? I have yet to see any sort of regulated schedule of military pattern swords for Mexico. The espada ancha, nor any of its remarkable scope of variants, was ever 'regulation', though it may be regarded as traditional, as its form remained loosely in use, and still is to degree in Mexican machetes etc. Interestingly, in the case of this Mexican 'cutlass' (a term often interchanged with machete in vernacular contexts). The last photo is what is typically regarded as the Spanish M1721 dragoon sword, sometimes deemed the 1769 in references as these remained in use by Spanish troops for so long. It is now thought these were likely in use at least decades prior to the 1721 year, and they remained in use through the 18th century, somewhat into the 19th. They were prevalent throughout all the Spanish colonies, and often were the blade donors for many of the varying types of edged weapons created including espada anchas. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 8th November 2023 at 05:06 PM. |
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#3 |
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My apologies, I guess my question was not properly worded.
I was wondering what was the last sword used by Europeans / Europeans descent that was NOT a military weapon (ie : regulated / issued). I know that swords were used in European armies up to WW1 and are still part of some dress uniforms, but I'm actually curious about the civilian side of sword ownership. From our previous discussion, it seemed to me that the espada ancha / machete could be considered as one of the last non-military sword used by Europeans or Europeans descent, but I'm wondering if there is others, perhaps used more recently. |
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#4 | |
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#5 |
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Indeed Victrix, I heard that before, interesting tradition! Though I don't think those students are expected to actually use those swords!
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#6 | |
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The Mensur is a kind of fencing with sharp blades but also clear regulations to prevent very serious injuries. Two kinds of swords can be used for the Mensur: The "Glockenschläger" (some images shown here: https://markomannia-burschenschaft.de/mensur/) or the "Korbschläger", which is more common and which has a basket-hilt showing the colours of the Verbindung (see attachment). Of course the construction of these swords follows strict regulations made by the fraternities, but they are totally civilian and in use until today, not only for the Mensur, but also for representative purposes. |
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#7 | |
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The other consideration is sword canes, which I believe were carried into the 20th Century. Similarly, many Eastern European cultures have their own cultural knives / short swords that were likely openly carried well into the early 20th Century, but I am less familiar with those. |
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#8 |
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Thanks Radboud, that's what I'm referring to indeed. The Eastern European lead is interesting, I'll have to look into it deeper!
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#9 |
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More ethnic eastern than European: You may want to search the ethnic forum, as this one is for European 19c and earlier weapons.
The khevsurli (Who consider themselves European) from the mountains of Georgia still use these swords (and bucklers below) for friendly 1st blood duelling sport. There is a tale of the Khevsurli finally getting word in 1915 that the Tsar was at war, so they all dressed up in their finest mail armour, swords, buckler shields, and flintlocks, and proceeded north to join the Tsar's forces. Sadly, for them, the mountain passes were snowed in and impassible, so they went home again to wait for the passes to clear, only to find for Russia, the war was over. The last Crusade <-link Last edited by kronckew; 13th November 2023 at 09:24 AM. |
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