The Flyssa

[Gavin Nugent]

With the posting of Lews Beja daggers and Jim's reference to Celtic hilts I thought I would start another Flyssa origin post as after my reply...

Originally Posted by freebooter

Good point Jim,

I beleive over all there is something specific historically with Celtic influences in Northern African weaponry. One can also look at the Flyssa, put two back to back and you have the same shape as the Celtic swords.
here are just a couple of links for comparison.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_sword
http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=62

Gav

I searched the forum for past postings and couldn't find any reference to the Flyssa and celtic swords being connected in any way so here it is people, time to come together and consider or debunk this theory as many other good and relevant points have been made about it's possible origins in past postings.
Jim with your knowledge of tribal movements throughout the world over the centuries I would be very interested to know if you or any other member here can provide any direction to the subject being possible, maybe the Roman movements within Africa did bring this knowledge with celtic slaves that was passed onto others???
Also below is an interactive map I found. With the Celts controlling northern Spain, albeit a very long time ago, it is possible swords found their way down into Northen Africa and were changed over time....
http://www.resourcesforhistory.com/

[kronckew]

the vandals, an eastern germanic tribe made their way down to spain and north africa and occupied the carthage area for a while.


looks like most of the areas they wandered thru before carthage was originally celtic.

[katana]

G'day Gav ,
a similar discussion on this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=flyssa+bronze

Here's a picture posted by PBishop which illustrates the idea beautifully

Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

G'day Gav ,
a similar discussion on this thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=flyssa+bronze

Here's a picture posted by PBishop which illustrates the idea beautifully

Regards David

Well done David!! Thats the reference I was trying to think of! I just posted so didnt see this until I closed my post. Thank you !!

[kronckew]

to echo david's celtic bronze halved, here is my flyssa doubled.

[Gonzalo G]

I must agree with Jim. There is no evidence of such connection as the celts and the flyssa. I feel this is a subject which passes throught the european etnocentrism, which sees a relation father to son with some oriental and african weapons. The machaira and the khukri is one of this cases. I find materially impossible that the vandals, which invaded Spain in the 5th Century AC and for just a little time, which had steel or iron swords with designs very different from the bronze age weapons, could take a bronze age design, appropiated for this metal but not for steel, to North Africa, and there, North Africans could split this design in two to make a new weapon.

The first thing the vandals should had to do, is archaeology, as the bronze age and it´s weapons dissapeared hundreds years ago. Very unlikely. The second thing, is abandom their modern weapons to change them for this heavy and cumbersome ones. Also unlikely. Spain, or Hispania, was in the second Iron Age on that time (or maybe latter), the celts already assimilated in many senses to a new society with different weapons.

And then, how should this weapon could survive in North Africa and evolve in secrecy to, let´s say, the 18th Century without traces of archaeological, literary or iconographic evidence on the hands on the berbers, though they had a very relevant historical role from the 11th to the 14th Centuries at least, not to mention their pirate activities on the Mediterranean to more recent times? Also very unlikely. The answer in obvious. The flyssa is originated on more recent events, different from the vandal invassion. The resemblance with the bronze age sword split in two is merely coincidental, IMHO.
Regards

Gonzalo G

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Gav,
Thank you for opening this thread on the flyssa, and for the interesting observation noting the similarity of curvature in some Celtic swords' blade profile to these mysterious North African sabres. Actually, I have heard this concept it seems, comparing the deep bellied profile of the flyssa to the half section of blades, but cannot recall the source at the moment. Most earlier discussions on flyssas have often suggested possible links to ancient Mediterranean swords, in particular the machaira, linked to the Celtibereans as well as to of course the classic kopis and falcata forms. While these influences seem compelling in degree, the main problem has been trying to establish any line of development chronologically between these ancient forms and any examples of proto-flyssa closer to this weapons relatively modern appearance.

It has been some time since we have had active discussions on the study of the flyssa here, so its great to have this thread to sort of compile what we know on these swords, and to evaluate and discuss that information as well as hopefully, any new data.

So here goes:

As noted, the flyssa seems to be a relative latecomer to traditional edged weapons, with one of the earliest known references being a letter to Ferdinand VII of Spain from his consul in Algeria in 1827. A French traveller named Carette several years later noted similar swords in trade from regions of Flica sur Mer. The term 'flyssa' derives from the French reference to the Iflissen Im Bahr tribe of Berbers in the Djurdjura range of the Little Atlas mountains in northeast Algeria, who are reputed to have been the 'Kabyles' who produced these distinct swords. The Kabyles are confederations of Berber tribes in these regions (Ar. gabail = the tribes).

An English encyclopedia in 1833 notes that the Kabyles, "...make guns, ploughs and many coarse utensils which they sell to the Arabs and Moors. They know how to temper steel and make sabres and knives of tolerable quality". While this reference confirms that the Kabyles did indeed have the ability to produce these weapons (actually of quite high quality despite the cyclopedia note), it also brings in an important reference to trade with the Moors.

In the epic work by Stone (pp.234-236), the flyssa is described as a Moroccan weapon. I had thought this apparant error might have been associated with the fact that the Kabyles were nominally Sunni Muslims of the Malakite Rite, whose center was in Morocco, and that contact may have diffused these to the west. The note on Moorish trade would further support these weapons possibly being found in Berber regions to the west. Altogether however the distinct flyssa form remains profoundly indiginous to the Kabyle regions.

With these observations it would seem that the flyssa, as a distinct edged weapon form (they range in size from smaller knives to very large swords), probably developed in Kabyle regions some time in the 18th century, and were actively established in production by the early 19th century. With the well known presence of the Ottomans long established across the Maghreb, we look to thier weapons as possibly influence for the flyssa.

In the reference "The Age of Suleyman the Magnificent"(1990, p.64, #50) a yataghan of the 16th century attributed to this Ottoman ruler is remarkable in the blade form, contrary to the yataghan blades of later times. It is heavy, a straight back and bellied, quite similar to the shape of the flyssa blade.
While it is known that the remote Kabyle tribes were never technically subdued by either Arab or Turk, in the more metropolitan areas, they were in effect relatively assimilated. According to references in the important work by Camille LaCoste-Dujardin ("Sabres Kabyles", Journal de la Societe des Africanistes, Tome XXVIII, 1958) it was an important rite of passage for young Kabyle men to leave thier villages to make thier fortunes, then return to be married. In this quest for fortune, one key factor was for the young man to obtain his sword. The profoundly present Ottoman yataghan was extremely highly regarded in this sense, and it would not seem surprising that the developing sword of these Berbers would derive from these much admired Turkish weapons, and of course likely of the earlier blade form. As the more distinct Berber sword developed, it seems to have virtually taken on a life of its own. The strange zoomorphic pommel is among the many instantly recognizable features of the flyssa, though it has not been determined exactly what creature is represented.

The straight, deep bellied blade, carrying the characteristic geometric markings and chiselled decoration has the also distinct feature of a needle point tip on most examples. The exact purpose or derivation of this feature also remains undetermined, but in my opinion it may have to do with this stated 'malle perce' (armour piercing) purpose seen on the Tatar sabres of Caucasian regions. The presence of mercenary troops among the Ottoman forces may account for this influence.

The earliest example of a flyssa I have found was in a French Foreign Legion museum in France, and attributed to combat acquisition in 1857. Its form and decoration distinctly as most examples seen in collections today. In her work, Ms. LaCoste-Dujardin notes that around the 1850's the quality of these weapons was in decadence, and as the weapon itself became obsolete, with a clearly brief period of use, production for the developing trade in tourism became prevalent.

This is collectively transcribed from my notes at hand from much of the research done a number of years ago, and I hope will serve as a benchmark for further discussion and opinions on the observations I have included.

All best regards,
Jim