A lion pommel hanger

M ELEY · 5th October 2011, 11:25 PM

Fairly recent acquisition is this English or possibly American hanger with brass lion pommel cast as a whole piece. 4-slotted brass hilt and serrated copper wire wrap. I suspect the grip might be cherry (American??), but still have to look into that one. In any case, as these were popular officer's swords in both the armies and navies of the Amer Revolutionary war period, I'm glad to have it as a representative piece of possibly naval origin.

Norman McCormick · 8th October 2011, 12:15 AM

Hi Mark,
I don't know how I missed this thread

. Love it, hangers of all descriptions are one of my favourite forms and these lion pommelled slot hilted types, I think, are so evocative of the latter part of the 18thC. It's a great addition to your collection and it would be nice if you could tie it down to a naval connection but I think that's going to be a difficult if not impossible exercise. Great catch.
Kind Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 8th October 2011, 01:42 AM

Hello Norman. Thanks for commenting on this hanger. Agreed, these are great swords for the period. Also agreed, almost impossible to tack down to naval. It's enough for me to say that these types were popular among naval officers of the period. Seems they are becoming harder to come by (I've wanted one for awhile and just had to get it). If I could at least pin-point the wood of the grip being cherry, I believe that might at least lean it toward country of origin. Whether Brit or American, though, I'm happy with it.
Cheers!
Mark

Dmitry · 8th October 2011, 04:43 AM

A very nice English officer's hanger!

M ELEY · 8th October 2011, 05:29 AM

Hello Dmitry. Good to hear from you and thanks for your input. Yes, I am leaning more toward the obvious conclusion that it's English. The decorative wire wrapping, quality of the brass casting of the hilt and one-piece well-defined lion pommel have more quality than the colonial American pieces of the time (with some exceptions, of course

).

Dmitry · 8th October 2011, 06:41 AM

Hi, Mark.
There is no doubt on my part that the hilt of your sword is not American-made. There are several reasons; for one, it looks to have been gilt, a feature you will pretty much never see on American-made swords of that vintage [I'd date it ca. mid-1770s - very early 1790s].
The naval attribution is a strong one, even though it doesn't have an anchor. Of course it could also have been an army officer's sword, but if I had it, I would definitely have considered the navy or a privateer officer.
I have two British officers' swords with very similar lion head pommels in my collection. One is a cavalry officer's piece, silver-hilted and hallmarked with a London date letter 1780. The other is naval officer's.
Yours's a very nice, clean sword. Enjoy!

Norman McCormick · 10th October 2011, 08:23 PM

Hi,
Another silver lion for the 'pride'.
Regards,
Norman

M ELEY · 10th October 2011, 11:01 PM

Dmitry and Norman,

You have both reduced me to tears!! Absolutely beautiful examples that anyone would be proud to own. Remember me in your wills-

Thank you for posting them here for this thread so that others can see how amazing this sword form truly is.

M ELEY · 10th October 2011, 11:13 PM

Hello Jim and thank you so very much for your valuable comments!
Quite to the contrary, what you said is probably the most important part of this discussion. One must differentiate between the points that although my hanger is English made, it very possibly could have ended up in a colonist's hands. There were very few quality American sword makers during this period and while blacksmith-made swords were more common, a sword of quality had to come from outside the colonies. Considering the vast numbers of American soldiers of the period, arms were desperately needed.

One of the crucial ways this could be accomplished was through capture. Considering the numbers you quote of captured merchant ships alone, one can see where the necessity was met. Whether through capture in battle, plundering from ships or supply lines, or through illicit purchase (there were still those on the continent selling to the colonies), it definately leaves the door open for American use. Your point drives home the reason Neumann's guide contains so many different weapons from other nationalities and periods: for the colonists, it was make do with what one could get their hands on. They did what they had to do to survive, like a certain occupation of 'sea robbers' I'm familiar with-

Thank you for reminding me of this fact and keeping me on my toes, Jim

Mark

Dmitry · 11th October 2011, 12:58 AM

Most small arms came into continental hands not through capture, as heroic and romantic as it sounds, but by banal purchases and 'foreign aid', mainly from the French, who have shipped thousands of strands of muskets and piles of swords, and through the Dutch merchants in St.Eustatius and other Caribbean ports. Instances of arms capture from the British ships are known, and are few. Officer weapons were all private purchases. I would assume that 'certain English cutlers' continued to trade in them through third parties even during the Rev.War.
The interesting part of these lion-headed hangers is not just the hilts, but the blades as well, which for the most part are uniform in shape, as shown above, and are mostly undecorated. I would wager that they were made in Solingen, and hilted in England, London, for the most part. My silver-hilted example is an exception, it's mounted with a trophy Seven Year War period blade marked Grenadiers de France. It was discussed on the sword Forum some years back. But the rest are all the same, more or less. Just my $.02.

M ELEY · 11th October 2011, 01:17 AM

Thanks for that valuable information as well, Dmitry. Filing it away in my records for future reference, as I do with so much of the info here...

5th October 2011, 11:25 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	A lion pommel hanger Fairly recent acquisition is this English or possibly American hanger with brass lion pommel cast as a whole piece. 4-slotted brass hilt and serrated copper wire wrap. I suspect the grip might be cherry (American??), but still have to look into that one. In any case, as these were popular officer's swords in both the armies and navies of the Amer Revolutionary war period, I'm glad to have it as a representative piece of possibly naval origin. Attached Images

10th October 2011, 08:23 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Another silver lion for the 'pride'. Regards, Norman Attached Images

8th October 2011, 12:15 AM	#2
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Mark, I don't know how I missed this thread . Love it, hangers of all descriptions are one of my favourite forms and these lion pommelled slot hilted types, I think, are so evocative of the latter part of the 18thC. It's a great addition to your collection and it would be nice if you could tie it down to a naval connection but I think that's going to be a difficult if not impossible exercise. Great catch. Kind Regards, Norman.

8th October 2011, 01:42 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Norman. Thanks for commenting on this hanger. Agreed, these are great swords for the period. Also agreed, almost impossible to tack down to naval. It's enough for me to say that these types were popular among naval officers of the period. Seems they are becoming harder to come by (I've wanted one for awhile and just had to get it). If I could at least pin-point the wood of the grip being cherry, I believe that might at least lean it toward country of origin. Whether Brit or American, though, I'm happy with it. Cheers! Mark

8th October 2011, 04:43 AM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	A very nice English officer's hanger!

8th October 2011, 05:29 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Dmitry. Good to hear from you and thanks for your input. Yes, I am leaning more toward the obvious conclusion that it's English. The decorative wire wrapping, quality of the brass casting of the hilt and one-piece well-defined lion pommel have more quality than the colonial American pieces of the time (with some exceptions, of course ).

8th October 2011, 06:41 AM	#6
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Hi, Mark. There is no doubt on my part that the hilt of your sword is not American-made. There are several reasons; for one, it looks to have been gilt, a feature you will pretty much never see on American-made swords of that vintage [I'd date it ca. mid-1770s - very early 1790s]. The naval attribution is a strong one, even though it doesn't have an anchor. Of course it could also have been an army officer's sword, but if I had it, I would definitely have considered the navy or a privateer officer. I have two British officers' swords with very similar lion head pommels in my collection. One is a cavalry officer's piece, silver-hilted and hallmarked with a London date letter 1780. The other is naval officer's. Yours's a very nice, clean sword. Enjoy!

10th October 2011, 11:01 PM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Dmitry and Norman, You have both reduced me to tears!! Absolutely beautiful examples that anyone would be proud to own. Remember me in your wills- Thank you for posting them here for this thread so that others can see how amazing this sword form truly is.

10th October 2011, 11:13 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Hello Jim and thank you so very much for your valuable comments! Quite to the contrary, what you said is probably the most important part of this discussion. One must differentiate between the points that although my hanger is English made, it very possibly could have ended up in a colonist's hands. There were very few quality American sword makers during this period and while blacksmith-made swords were more common, a sword of quality had to come from outside the colonies. Considering the vast numbers of American soldiers of the period, arms were desperately needed. One of the crucial ways this could be accomplished was through capture. Considering the numbers you quote of captured merchant ships alone, one can see where the necessity was met. Whether through capture in battle, plundering from ships or supply lines, or through illicit purchase (there were still those on the continent selling to the colonies), it definately leaves the door open for American use. Your point drives home the reason Neumann's guide contains so many different weapons from other nationalities and periods: for the colonists, it was make do with what one could get their hands on. They did what they had to do to survive, like a certain occupation of 'sea robbers' I'm familiar with- Thank you for reminding me of this fact and keeping me on my toes, Jim Mark

11th October 2011, 12:58 AM	#10
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Most small arms came into continental hands not through capture, as heroic and romantic as it sounds, but by banal purchases and 'foreign aid', mainly from the French, who have shipped thousands of strands of muskets and piles of swords, and through the Dutch merchants in St.Eustatius and other Caribbean ports. Instances of arms capture from the British ships are known, and are few. Officer weapons were all private purchases. I would assume that 'certain English cutlers' continued to trade in them through third parties even during the Rev.War. The interesting part of these lion-headed hangers is not just the hilts, but the blades as well, which for the most part are uniform in shape, as shown above, and are mostly undecorated. I would wager that they were made in Solingen, and hilted in England, London, for the most part. My silver-hilted example is an exception, it's mounted with a trophy Seven Year War period blade marked Grenadiers de France. It was discussed on the sword Forum some years back. But the rest are all the same, more or less. Just my $.02.

11th October 2011, 01:17 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Thanks for that valuable information as well, Dmitry. Filing it away in my records for future reference, as I do with so much of the info here...