Keris golok?

gwirya · 16th April 2009, 03:25 PM

Any idea about the dapur? Please share any information about this one
thx

A. G. Maisey · 16th April 2009, 09:36 PM

Unusual.

Never seen anything like this.

My guess --- and it is only a guess--- is Lombok.

There appears to be an overall Balinese feel + maybe a little Bugis input in this piece. Lombok has both, and they used to do some pretty peculiar things with keris in Lombok.

Sajen · 16th April 2009, 11:16 PM

Also never have seen a keris like this before but it seems that this keris is in all parts long together like this. Is it maybe a reshaped (because broken?) so called keris pedang? My guess is also Lombok for origin.
Very interesting keris, will be worth to get a warangan (then you can see maybe by the pamor if my guess is correct about broken keris pedang) and a mendak.

sajen

Rick · 16th April 2009, 11:18 PM

How long is the blade ?

If it is short then possibly a Keris Badek ?
Lombok has already produced examples of Keris Pedang .

Why not Keris Badek ?

gwirya · 17th April 2009, 04:41 PM

The length of the blade is 31 cm (12.2 in") and the owner offering the keris is from Lombok.

semar · 17th April 2009, 05:15 PM

the dapur of this type of keris is keris pedang

regards semar

Sajen · 17th April 2009, 05:42 PM

I know only the long version, this one is 57 cm, only the blade.

sajen

Rick · 17th April 2009, 08:09 PM

Sajen, that is the only form I am familiar with also ..

A blade that short seems to fall more in patrem territory than pedang .

Keris Pedang Patrem ... ?

gwirya · 17th April 2009, 08:48 PM

Semar, the blade on your first picture seems to be very close to the one in my picture. How long is the blade of yours semar?
thank you guys for all the information, really appreciate it.
thx

David · 17th April 2009, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Sajen, that is the only form I am familiar with also ..

A blade that short seems to fall more in patrem territory than pedang .

Keris Pedang Patrem ... ?

I tend to agree. AFAIK "pedang" literally means "sword" and from my perspective 12" is just a wee bit too short to qualify as a sword.

Would love to see you clean the little guy up. Does it seem to have pamor?

semar · 17th April 2009, 10:57 PM

hello Gwirya

the lengte of my blad = 32 cm
and David when you don`t know this type of keris
that does not mean that the name is not correct
mabey its a other type of a keris pedang ???
because guppy`s you can find in the aquarium

regards semar

karset · 24th April 2009, 03:53 AM

maybe you all can see at Ensiklopedi Keris "curiga".close?
Picture from Kang Amuk Murugul, is Badik Curuk Aul,,,there are two of that type with diferent "ricikan" at Geusan Ulun Museum,Sumedang.They also 2 from top 8 pusaka of Sumedang.

Jussi M. · 24th April 2009, 10:13 PM

Please let´s not start this blah-blah-blah again

Who cares what X Y or Z call it. A name is just a name and usually it is so that many things come with many names. Would Elvis´s music be any better or worse if he had been named Melvin Tiny? Of course not. What counts is what it is - not what it´s name is. I am frustrated in reading countless threads that concentrate on skin deep barstool understanding, namely name-dropping, pun intended.

Is´nt there more to this subject - keris - than what a pamor is named or a dapur called?

Please do not understand me wrong - I am not speaking of this thread particularly but in general about where the focus in most threads seem to lie at. I am very interested in knowing the WHY, WHERE and WHEN a dapur such as this was created. This in my opinion is interesting, the music itself, not that the singer was named Melvin.

Just my opinion of course.

Thanks,

J

David · 24th April 2009, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Please let´s not start this blah-blah-blah again

Who cares what X Y or Z call it. A name is just a name and usually it is so that many things come with many names. Would Elvis´s music be any better or worse if he had been named Melvin Tiny? Of course not. What counts is what it is - not what it´s name is. I am frustrated in reading countless threads that concentrate on skin deep barstool understanding, namely name-dropping, pun intended.

Is´nt there more to this subject - keris - than what a pamor is named or a dapur called?

Please do not understand me wrong - I am not speaking of this thread particularly but in general about where the focus in most threads seem to lie at. I am very interested in knowing the WHY, WHERE and WHEN a dapur such as this was created. This in my opinion is interesting, the music itself, not that the singer was named Melvin.

Just my opinion of course.

Thanks,

J

Jussi, i am not in disagreement with you here.
So perhaps you could share with us your ideas of WHY, WHERE and WHEN this particular dhapur was developed. Let the music play.

Jussi M. · 25th April 2009, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Jussi, i am not in disagreement with you here.
So perhaps you could share with us your ideas of WHY, WHERE and WHEN this particular dhapur was developed. Let the music play.

Sorry David, cannot participate in that.

I like music. I am not a musician. Simple truth is I have no idea whatsoever but I would like to educate myself. That is why I joined this forum. To learn. I am very new to the keris but not new to learning. In fact that is what I do for a living: teach. And, it is my professional opinion as a teacher that the more terms and names used to describe a thing new to the student the more elusive learning becomes. - Add too many trees and it becomes difficult to see the forest. What comes to terms and names less is always best.

Excessive, overlapping and ill-defined terms should be avoided as they add more confusion than aid in understanding what is being discussed about

The first and foremost foundational purpose of any given body of theory is to clearly define what is meant by each given term as then and only then it becomes possible to understand what is being meant when those terms are used in the exchange of information.

In my opinion all terms that are not clearly and broadly accepted and shared within the keris community (which should be defined first, see what I mean?) should not be used as it only adds to confusion, misunderstanding and makes learning the more difficult. The use of vague, overlapping and elusive terms is in my opinion a clear mark of a need to impress others and hide the fact that one really does not understand what one is talking about.

The highest form of skill and understanding in any field of expertise is to be able to simplify and make things easily understandable to those who are less trained, read and experienced. Usually the more skill and understanding a person has the more easier and common, less terms infested, language he or she will use.

Thanks,

J.

David · 25th April 2009, 05:03 PM

Believe me Jussi, i do understand your frustration. However, the study of the keris is not like the study of a subject like mathematics. There are far less absolutes and a whole lot of very fussy areas. I am as interested in the why, where and when of this dhapur development as you are. The truth, i am afraid, is that it is very possible that no one can provide us with the definitive answers to these questions. Much of the information about keris is speculative or has been lost to time. So we discuss what we can. The name game can be quite frustrating and confusing and may well be a useless exercise in the end. Still i don't think the right thing to do is to shut down such discussions if people are interested in the exercise. Certainly there are some things to be learned from the application of languages in the keris world.
Your request that "all terms that are not clearly and broadly accepted and shared within the keris community should not be used" is indeed a difficult one because i believe that there are in fact many "keris communities" and they may use some different terminology. Words for various parts of the keris can differ from island to island and sometimes even be different on various parts of the same island. It is indeed complex and confusing, but it is what it is. Often enough i will try to use an English word to describe a keris part, but there is a limit to that and just as often i am left only with a local term to use. What English word could i use to describe a gonjo for instance, or to draw attention to the sogokan or gandik of a blade? Of course these are Javanese words and might not necessarily apply to a blade from another origin, but they are used in the hope that we all understand what is meant. But many keris come from areas where Javanese was not the dominate language and so different names developed for various parts, dhapurs and pamors. I don't think it is fair to call these different names excessive. At the end of the day i don't think any of these names really help us with understanding the deeper questions of the keris, which in my mind are many. But i also think that it is necessary to have a fair grasp of the cultures and languages (and therefore names given) of the various peoples of the keris if one is to have any hope of uncovering any of the deeper understanding that i think we all seek here. So in the end i think such discussions as these are at least relevant even if they are nothing more than a scratch at the surface.

16th April 2009, 03:25 PM	#1
gwirya Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15	Keris golok? Any idea about the dapur? Please share any information about this one thx Attached Images

16th April 2009, 11:18 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	How long is the blade ? If it is short then possibly a Keris Badek ? Lombok has already produced examples of Keris Pedang . Why not Keris Badek ? Last edited by Rick; 16th April 2009 at 11:49 PM.

17th April 2009, 05:15 PM	#6
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	the dapur of this type of keris is keris pedang regards semar Attached Images

17th April 2009, 05:42 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	I know only the long version, this one is 57 cm, only the blade. sajen Attached Images

24th April 2009, 03:53 AM	#12
karset Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 48	haloo everybody,, maybe you all can see at Ensiklopedi Keris "curiga".close? Picture from Kang Amuk Murugul, is Badik Curuk Aul,,,there are two of that type with diferent "ricikan" at Geusan Ulun Museum,Sumedang.They also 2 from top 8 pusaka of Sumedang.

16th April 2009, 09:36 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,896	Unusual. Never seen anything like this. My guess --- and it is only a guess--- is Lombok. There appears to be an overall Balinese feel + maybe a little Bugis input in this piece. Lombok has both, and they used to do some pretty peculiar things with keris in Lombok.

16th April 2009, 11:16 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,786	Also never have seen a keris like this before but it seems that this keris is in all parts long together like this. Is it maybe a reshaped (because broken?) so called keris pedang? My guess is also Lombok for origin. Very interesting keris, will be worth to get a warangan (then you can see maybe by the pamor if my guess is correct about broken keris pedang) and a mendak. sajen

17th April 2009, 04:41 PM	#5
gwirya Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15	The length of the blade is 31 cm (12.2 in") and the owner offering the keris is from Lombok.

17th April 2009, 08:09 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Sajen, that is the only form I am familiar with also .. A blade that short seems to fall more in patrem territory than pedang . Keris Pedang Patrem ... ?

17th April 2009, 08:48 PM	#9
gwirya Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 15	Semar, the blade on your first picture seems to be very close to the one in my picture. How long is the blade of yours semar? thank you guys for all the information, really appreciate it. thx

17th April 2009, 10:57 PM	#11
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	hello Gwirya the lengte of my blad = 32 cm and David when you don`t know this type of keris that does not mean that the name is not correct mabey its a other type of a keris pedang ??? because guppy`s you can find in the aquarium regards semar

24th April 2009, 10:13 PM	#13
Jussi M. Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 235	Please let´s not start this blah-blah-blah again Who cares what X Y or Z call it. A name is just a name and usually it is so that many things come with many names. Would Elvis´s music be any better or worse if he had been named Melvin Tiny? Of course not. What counts is what it is - not what it´s name is. I am frustrated in reading countless threads that concentrate on skin deep barstool understanding, namely name-dropping, pun intended. Is´nt there more to this subject - keris - than what a pamor is named or a dapur called? Please do not understand me wrong - I am not speaking of this thread particularly but in general about where the focus in most threads seem to lie at. I am very interested in knowing the WHY, WHERE and WHEN a dapur such as this was created. This in my opinion is interesting, the music itself, not that the singer was named Melvin. Just my opinion of course. Thanks, J

25th April 2009, 05:03 PM	#16
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	Believe me Jussi, i do understand your frustration. However, the study of the keris is not like the study of a subject like mathematics. There are far less absolutes and a whole lot of very fussy areas. I am as interested in the why, where and when of this dhapur development as you are. The truth, i am afraid, is that it is very possible that no one can provide us with the definitive answers to these questions. Much of the information about keris is speculative or has been lost to time. So we discuss what we can. The name game can be quite frustrating and confusing and may well be a useless exercise in the end. Still i don't think the right thing to do is to shut down such discussions if people are interested in the exercise. Certainly there are some things to be learned from the application of languages in the keris world. Your request that "all terms that are not clearly and broadly accepted and shared within the keris community should not be used" is indeed a difficult one because i believe that there are in fact many "keris communities" and they may use some different terminology. Words for various parts of the keris can differ from island to island and sometimes even be different on various parts of the same island. It is indeed complex and confusing, but it is what it is. Often enough i will try to use an English word to describe a keris part, but there is a limit to that and just as often i am left only with a local term to use. What English word could i use to describe a gonjo for instance, or to draw attention to the sogokan or gandik of a blade? Of course these are Javanese words and might not necessarily apply to a blade from another origin, but they are used in the hope that we all understand what is meant. But many keris come from areas where Javanese was not the dominate language and so different names developed for various parts, dhapurs and pamors. I don't think it is fair to call these different names excessive. At the end of the day i don't think any of these names really help us with understanding the deeper questions of the keris, which in my mind are many. But i also think that it is necessary to have a fair grasp of the cultures and languages (and therefore names given) of the various peoples of the keris if one is to have any hope of uncovering any of the deeper understanding that i think we all seek here. So in the end i think such discussions as these are at least relevant even if they are nothing more than a scratch at the surface.