Mystery Mace and Sudanese Command Baton ?

drac2k · 16th August 2019, 07:52 PM

The mace is supposed to be African however the carving and the silver foil are throwing me off; Indian maybe?
In regards to the ax-spear hybrid; could this be a Sudanese Command baton /

Kubur · 16th August 2019, 09:40 PM

Waowww i love it because it's a really difficult one.
The carving is flyssa like, but might be Shona too...
The silver is Omani to me...
The mace head looks indo persian
Do you think that it was made up recently with old parts or if it's actually a real thing???

drac2k · 16th August 2019, 10:48 PM

Thanks. I'm pretty sure that it is original; now that being said, it may have been embellished a long time ago. The carved handle threw me off, but your theory about a possible Algerian connection makes great sense.

TVV · 16th August 2019, 11:42 PM

The axe/spear combination could be from the Sudan (in the historic sense of the term, not just limited to the boundaries of the modern state by that name) - the monitor (?) skin is certainly characteristic of the region, and the axe spear combination as well. The engravings on the axe look similar to what one finds on tebu knives and daggers.

The axe and the mace were weapons associated with dervishes. "Command baton" seems to be a description often thrown around when it comes to items from the Sudan that do not appear like practical arms, as we from our Western perspective try to find a practical use. Often, these items were carried for their presumed magical powers and for use in rituals.

Teodor

drac2k · 17th August 2019, 01:00 AM

Thank you for your comments. The ax-spear combination although well made, I would not consider it a 'battle weapon," and it is probably as you state for a dervish or it might have been used to designate rank, etc..The mace, however, is a real weapon and I wonder if it might have been used by a fakir.

Jim McDougall · 17th August 2019, 06:20 PM

These are truly interesting pieces, and some excellent suggestions and observations being made. I have not really looked further into notes etc. yet but I do recall the 'mace' circumstance being discussed about a year ago regarding Sudanese use.
As Teodor has noted, the 'command baton' does seem to have been often misapplied to a good number of unusual 'weapons' in Sudanese contexts which seem sub par as such, but actually were used by religious figures in the field for ritual and ceremonial support. In Sudanese forces, these elements were profoundly key in the spiritual invocations as these forces advanced into battle.

It seems to me that the mace may well be one of such items, but cannot be sure. The ogival head seems known to have been used in Sudanese context.
While the spear/axe combination would seem likely to have been with thuluth decoration (as most arms of these kinds during the Mahdiyya were) it is possible that some remained in their 'native' state. There were numbers of diverse tribal groups among the forces of the Caliph in campaign, and they accounted for many of the weapons seemingly incongruent with those indigenous in Sudan.

The linear dotted decoration seems of other regional source on the axe, and reminds me of possibly something Tebu as Teodor has noted, and the 'rocker' type motif in mace carving does recall the fibula pattern on flyssa, which may easily have transmitted into Sudanese contexts. These are among many basic Saharan folk religion talismanic themes it would seem.

Time to hit the books

16th August 2019, 07:52 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Mystery Mace and Sudanese Command Baton ? The mace is supposed to be African however the carving and the silver foil are throwing me off; Indian maybe? In regards to the ax-spear hybrid; could this be a Sudanese Command baton / Attached Images

16th August 2019, 09:40 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Waowww i love it because it's a really difficult one. The carving is flyssa like, but might be Shona too... The silver is Omani to me... The mace head looks indo persian Do you think that it was made up recently with old parts or if it's actually a real thing???

16th August 2019, 10:48 PM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thanks. I'm pretty sure that it is original; now that being said, it may have been embellished a long time ago. The carved handle threw me off, but your theory about a possible Algerian connection makes great sense.

16th August 2019, 11:42 PM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,619	The axe/spear combination could be from the Sudan (in the historic sense of the term, not just limited to the boundaries of the modern state by that name) - the monitor (?) skin is certainly characteristic of the region, and the axe spear combination as well. The engravings on the axe look similar to what one finds on tebu knives and daggers. The axe and the mace were weapons associated with dervishes. "Command baton" seems to be a description often thrown around when it comes to items from the Sudan that do not appear like practical arms, as we from our Western perspective try to find a practical use. Often, these items were carried for their presumed magical powers and for use in rituals. Teodor

17th August 2019, 01:00 AM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,230	Thank you for your comments. The ax-spear combination although well made, I would not consider it a 'battle weapon," and it is probably as you state for a dervish or it might have been used to designate rank, etc..The mace, however, is a real weapon and I wonder if it might have been used by a fakir.

17th August 2019, 06:20 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,938	These are truly interesting pieces, and some excellent suggestions and observations being made. I have not really looked further into notes etc. yet but I do recall the 'mace' circumstance being discussed about a year ago regarding Sudanese use. As Teodor has noted, the 'command baton' does seem to have been often misapplied to a good number of unusual 'weapons' in Sudanese contexts which seem sub par as such, but actually were used by religious figures in the field for ritual and ceremonial support. In Sudanese forces, these elements were profoundly key in the spiritual invocations as these forces advanced into battle. It seems to me that the mace may well be one of such items, but cannot be sure. The ogival head seems known to have been used in Sudanese context. While the spear/axe combination would seem likely to have been with thuluth decoration (as most arms of these kinds during the Mahdiyya were) it is possible that some remained in their 'native' state. There were numbers of diverse tribal groups among the forces of the Caliph in campaign, and they accounted for many of the weapons seemingly incongruent with those indigenous in Sudan. The linear dotted decoration seems of other regional source on the axe, and reminds me of possibly something Tebu as Teodor has noted, and the 'rocker' type motif in mace carving does recall the fibula pattern on flyssa, which may easily have transmitted into Sudanese contexts. These are among many basic Saharan folk religion talismanic themes it would seem. Time to hit the books