Older Toledo? Blade, Makers Marks I.D.

Norman McCormick · 4th January 2017, 10:06 PM

Hi All,
Can you please help in identifying the origins of this blade. I will post more and hopefully better pictures tomorrow. Thanks in advance for your help.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 5th January 2017, 02:47 AM

Hi Norman,
Having the whole sword would of course be helpful, but this blade pretty much speaks for itself. It is of course not Spanish but German, and most likely Solingen. The style of the crowns are found on German markings often purported to be Spanish. The configuration of three of the same mark was often used by the Wundes family in Solingen with kings heads.

The 'TOLEDO' is stylized to duplicate Spanish blades as well, and the interesting E and O with line through imitates the Spanish inscribing of Toledo with magic and cabalistic sigil context . The brass filled running wolf suggests very early German blade (these would not be found on true Spanish blades).

I was sure I had seen the crowned IB somewhere but cannot find it yet.
The blade is probably 17th century but more will be known if we can find more on the markings. The Brach family of smiths in Solingen were around from late 16th well into the 17th and names like Jan, Jacop, Johann give potential. The 'I' serves as a 'J' in old writing.

Al the best
Jim

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th January 2017, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Norman,
Having the whole sword would of course be helpful, but this blade pretty much speaks for itself. It is of course not Spanish but German, and most likely Solingen. The style of the crowns are found on German markings often purported to be Spanish. The configuration of three of the same mark was often used by the Wundes family in Solingen with kings heads.

The 'TOLEDO' is stylized to duplicate Spanish blades as well, and the interesting E and O with line through imitates the Spanish inscribing of Toledo with magic and cabalistic sigil context . The brass filled running wolf suggests very early German blade (these would not be found on true Spanish blades).

I was sure I had seen the crowned IB somewhere but cannot find it yet.
The blade is probably 17th century but more will be known if we can find more on the markings. The Brach family of smiths in Solingen were around from late 16th well into the 17th and names like Jan, Jacop, Johann give potential. The 'I' serves as a 'J' in old writing.

Al the best
Jim

PLEASE SEE https://translate.google.com/transla...tm&prev=search which rolls out a long list of details on the Solingen Swordmakers ;Brock with many names with a J at the beginning as you point out the probable I. source...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th January 2017, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Norman,
Having the whole sword would of course be helpful, but this blade pretty much speaks for itself. It is of course not Spanish but German, and most likely Solingen. The style of the crowns are found on German markings often purported to be Spanish. The configuration of three of the same mark was often used by the Wundes family in Solingen with kings heads.

The 'TOLEDO' is stylized to duplicate Spanish blades as well, and the interesting E and O with line through imitates the Spanish inscribing of Toledo with magic and cabalistic sigil context . The brass filled running wolf suggests very early German blade (these would not be found on true Spanish blades).

I was sure I had seen the crowned IB somewhere but cannot find it yet.
The blade is probably 17th century but more will be known if we can find more on the markings. The Brach family of smiths in Solingen were around from late 16th well into the 17th and names like Jan, Jacop, Johann give potential. The 'I' serves as a 'J' in old writing.

Al the best
Jim

PLEASE SEE https://translate.google.com/transla...tm&prev=search which rolls out a long list of details on the Solingen Swordmakers ;Broch with many names with a J at the beginning as you point out the probable I. source...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 6th January 2017, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Norman,
Having the whole sword would of course be helpful, but this blade pretty much speaks for itself. It is of course not Spanish but German, and most likely Solingen. The style of the crowns are found on German markings often purported to be Spanish. The configuration of three of the same mark was often used by the Wundes family in Solingen with kings heads.

The 'TOLEDO' is stylized to duplicate Spanish blades as well, and the interesting E and O with line through imitates the Spanish inscribing of Toledo with magic and cabalistic sigil context . The brass filled running wolf suggests very early German blade (these would not be found on true Spanish blades).

I was sure I had seen the crowned IB somewhere but cannot find it yet.
The blade is probably 17th century but more will be known if we can find more on the markings. The Brach family of smiths in Solingen were around from late 16th well into the 17th and names like Jan, Jacop, Johann give potential. The 'I' serves as a 'J' in old writing.

Al the best
Jim

Salaams Jim, PLEASE SEE https://translate.google.com/transla...tm&prev=search which rolls out a long list of details on the Solingen Swordmakers ;Broch with many names with a J at the beginning as you point out the probable I. source...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ALEX · 6th January 2017, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... It is of course not Spanish but German, and most likely Solingen.... The 'TOLEDO' is stylized to duplicate Spanish blades as well, and the interesting E and O with line through imitates the Spanish inscribing of Toledo with magic and cabalistic sigil context...
Jim

Jim, I just posted another Toledo(?) blade on Ethnographic side, and saw this sword and your response. Could there be a connection? Mine has lines through E and D. Here's LINK TO MY POST

Norman McCormick · 6th January 2017, 08:26 PM

Hi Jim et al,
Many thanks for your info re this blade. I have attached more photographs which I hope will give further insight into the origins of the blade. As you can see the blade has been married to a later hilt which I would think has some Fraternal associations. The grip is bone. There is a copper wire wrap which I suspect is a recent replacement (electrical wire), there is no trace of an older wire wrap although there are two fine copper wires at one point on the grip but maybe this is also modern electrical wire. I have been unable to find the Fraternal association connected to this sword. I think this blade and to a lesser degree the grip has been used and reused several times during their lives. I hope you can shed more light on this item.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. One of the photos shows that the 'Toledo' mark was once inlaid with copper as is the 'Wolf' mark.

Norman McCormick · 6th January 2017, 08:27 PM

More Photos.

Jim McDougall · 7th January 2017, 03:41 AM

Norman thank you for these photos, what a great sword!!!
To see an old blade like this in what appears to be a privately commissioned Masonic sword is fascinating, as we can wonder under what circumstances this blade was obtained.
In many cases, Masonic swords were fitted with either heirloom or trophy blades, and as officers and members of lodges and groups within the fraternal orders were often military officers, we may presume many were indeed trophies.

While relying mostly on resources on American Masonic regalia, I think this may be a sword intended for a Masonic officer, possibly a commander in the York Rite. The cross pattee is usually associated with the Knights Templar if I understand correctly. The animal figures may be sheep, which align with some of the Christian symbolism in Masonic regalia (research some tie ago and have not found notes).
The trefoil quillon terminals and classic pommel align with variants of Royal Arch type swords, and the white grips usually for commanders.

Mostly speculative on my part, but just using material which might be useful and hope others might fill in or correct as required.

Norman McCormick · 10th January 2017, 07:11 PM

Hi Jim,
Thanks as always for your thoughts. I did suspect that your interest may be peaked by the fraternal associations of this sword. I did of course look in to this association but I hit a brick wall as to the exact Order or Group that the symbolism referred to. I'm not sure what you mean by animal figures/sheep? Thanks again for your interest and input.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Maybe someone will I.D. the I.B. under the crown as it seems distinctive enough to have been catalogued somewhere along the line.

P.P.S. It would appear the blade and hilt have been together for some time.

fernando · 10th January 2017, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

...P.S. Maybe someone will I.D. the I.B. under the crown as it seems distinctive enough to have been catalogued somewhere along the line...

Apparently not an easy task, Norman; i, for one, have revolved heavens and earth and had no results. Hopefully someone will succeed.

Norman McCormick · 10th January 2017, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Apparently not an easy task, Norman; i, for one, have revolved heavens and earth and had no results. Hopefully someone will succeed.

Hi Fernando,
Many thanks for your efforts on my behalf as always.

I have tried Geschichte der Solinger Klingenindustrie amongst other resources but have come up with nil as well. As you say maybe the cartouche will ring a bell with someone sometime. Once again thanks for taking the time and effort to search for an answer.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 10th January 2017, 09:35 PM

Hi Jim,
I have another couple of 'different' swords to post so I hope you have your deerstalker to hand.

My Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2017, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
I have another couple of 'different' swords to post so I hope you have your deerstalker to hand.

My Regards,
Norman.

...and the Drambuie!!!.....the games afoot !!

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2017, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Jim,
Thanks as always for your thoughts. I did suspect that your interest may be peaked by the fraternal associations of this sword. I did of course look in to this association but I hit a brick wall as to the exact Order or Group that the symbolism referred to. I'm not sure what you mean by animal figures/sheep? Thanks again for your interest and input.
My Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Maybe someone will I.D. the I.B. under the crown as it seems distinctive enough to have been catalogued somewhere along the line.

P.P.S. It would appear the blade and hilt have been together for some time.

You're most welcome Norman, and as always, I thank you for sharing the great and interesting pieces you always find!
The 'animal' figures are at either side of the cross in the quillon terminal decoration, but look 'tailed' so maybe a lion (?) Masonic symbolism is wrought with so many devices and allegoric decoration its hard to really decode.
I agree this seems to have been together some time, and certainly in the 19th c using a very old blade.
I have searched through all marking sources I could find and nothing on the IB. Its manner and configuration are consistant with Solingen markings of these times and much like the kings heads of Wundes, which occur in varying number. The crown is of style used on German marks.
Pending further information, the Brach family still seems a plausible maker.

4th January 2017, 10:06 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Older Toledo? Blade, Makers Marks I.D. Hi All, Can you please help in identifying the origins of this blade. I will post more and hopefully better pictures tomorrow. Thanks in advance for your help. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

6th January 2017, 08:26 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Jim et al, Many thanks for your info re this blade. I have attached more photographs which I hope will give further insight into the origins of the blade. As you can see the blade has been married to a later hilt which I would think has some Fraternal associations. The grip is bone. There is a copper wire wrap which I suspect is a recent replacement (electrical wire), there is no trace of an older wire wrap although there are two fine copper wires at one point on the grip but maybe this is also modern electrical wire. I have been unable to find the Fraternal association connected to this sword. I think this blade and to a lesser degree the grip has been used and reused several times during their lives. I hope you can shed more light on this item. Regards, Norman. P.S. One of the photos shows that the 'Toledo' mark was once inlaid with copper as is the 'Wolf' mark. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 6th January 2017 at 10:08 PM.

6th January 2017, 08:27 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	More Photos. Attached Images

10th January 2017, 07:11 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Jim, Thanks as always for your thoughts. I did suspect that your interest may be peaked by the fraternal associations of this sword. I did of course look in to this association but I hit a brick wall as to the exact Order or Group that the symbolism referred to. I'm not sure what you mean by animal figures/sheep? Thanks again for your interest and input. My Regards, Norman. P.S. Maybe someone will I.D. the I.B. under the crown as it seems distinctive enough to have been catalogued somewhere along the line. P.P.S. It would appear the blade and hilt have been together for some time. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 10th January 2017 at 07:22 PM.

5th January 2017, 02:47 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Hi Norman, Having the whole sword would of course be helpful, but this blade pretty much speaks for itself. It is of course not Spanish but German, and most likely Solingen. The style of the crowns are found on German markings often purported to be Spanish. The configuration of three of the same mark was often used by the Wundes family in Solingen with kings heads. The 'TOLEDO' is stylized to duplicate Spanish blades as well, and the interesting E and O with line through imitates the Spanish inscribing of Toledo with magic and cabalistic sigil context . The brass filled running wolf suggests very early German blade (these would not be found on true Spanish blades). I was sure I had seen the crowned IB somewhere but cannot find it yet. The blade is probably 17th century but more will be known if we can find more on the markings. The Brach family of smiths in Solingen were around from late 16th well into the 17th and names like Jan, Jacop, Johann give potential. The 'I' serves as a 'J' in old writing. Al the best Jim

7th January 2017, 03:41 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Norman thank you for these photos, what a great sword!!! To see an old blade like this in what appears to be a privately commissioned Masonic sword is fascinating, as we can wonder under what circumstances this blade was obtained. In many cases, Masonic swords were fitted with either heirloom or trophy blades, and as officers and members of lodges and groups within the fraternal orders were often military officers, we may presume many were indeed trophies. While relying mostly on resources on American Masonic regalia, I think this may be a sword intended for a Masonic officer, possibly a commander in the York Rite. The cross pattee is usually associated with the Knights Templar if I understand correctly. The animal figures may be sheep, which align with some of the Christian symbolism in Masonic regalia (research some tie ago and have not found notes). The trefoil quillon terminals and classic pommel align with variants of Royal Arch type swords, and the white grips usually for commanders. Mostly speculative on my part, but just using material which might be useful and hope others might fill in or correct as required.

10th January 2017, 09:35 PM	#13
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Jim, I have another couple of 'different' swords to post so I hope you have your deerstalker to hand. My Regards, Norman.