European blades in India

[Mercenary]

I found out a notable description of English traveller in India in 1750. About Marathas's sword:
"They are so curious in the blades, that they hold the European broad swords in great contempte, especially the common-sale ones, that are sent out by our ship. When the Derby, captain Anfell, was so scandalously taken by a few of Angria's grabs (Angria was admiral of Marathas's navy), whose marines are exactly the same as the Morattoes, and often some of their subjects; there fell into Angria's hands, among a great quantity of other valuable military stores, some chests of sword blades, on examing of wich Angria said, that the English swords were onli sit to cut butter with".
From "Voyage to the East India" by J.H.Grose.

I know that some European blades were used on the cane-swords. You can see a lot of such items on the court pictures (in profile, shield, tulwar and a cane-sword in the hand). Also when a lot of old European blades were delivered to India it was more easily to use for the common swords the old cheap blades. And such situation there was until second part of 19th (IMHO).

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Mercenary

I know that some European blades were used on the cane-swords. You can see a lot of such items on the court pictures (in profile, shield, tulwar and a cane-sword in the hand). Also when a lot of old European blades were delivered to India it was more easily to use for the common swords the old cheap blades. And such situation there was until second part of 19th (IMHO).

Hi, Mercenary!

What do you think about European blade Indian pata sword? I remember that they are often found.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Mercenary.. Nice example ...This is a Portuguese blade.(Del) Rey inscribed on blade at 4th picture. It is noted that the three primary reasons why they were in the Indian Ocean region was because they sought Gold and Silver, Spices and Mercenaries. In addition, they took a lot of their Mercenaries from India...as well as the likelihood of a blade transition through trade.

Interesting; what look like Dukari Moons locally applied.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Ibrahim,

You are correct 100%. But Angria's snide remark is the only known reference to the "inferiority" of European blades. In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals and there were multitudes of them on Indian weapons to the point of creation of specific classes such as "firangi" and "alemani". North Sumatran Piso Podang ( heavily influenced by Indians) got its name from the Portugese espadao. European officers bought Indian and Persian blades because of their wootz-y beauty but the natives hunted for European blades because of their quality.

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

Ibrahim,

You are correct 100%. But Angria's snide remark is the only known reference to the "inferiority" of European blades. In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals and there were multitudes of them on Indian weapons to the point of creation of specific classes such as "firangi" and "alemani". North Sumatran Piso Podang ( heavily influenced by Indians) got its name from the Portugese espadao. European officers bought Indian and Persian blades because of their wootz-y beauty but the natives hunted for European blades because of their quality.

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)

Salaams Ariel... History is full of odd remarks and India by its very size must be teeming with them... Well noted on the Piso Podang. It rather underlines the importance of India as an Ethnographic hub and clearly it is a candidate to be treated in its own right as an Ethnographic Region. The difficulty I suppose is that many other countries weapons are reflected in and by Indian styles.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[ariel]

Ibrahim,
You are correct again.

I am fascinated by Indian swords and collect them avidly. Their imagination and ethno-religious undertones are unsurpassing. I do not collect European weapons: IMHO, they are technologically so thoughtful and goal-oriented, that to me they are boring:-)

But my perspective is that of a collector, not a user.

If I had to choose a sword for a battle, my absolute preference would be for a European one rather than Indian. Interestingly, the Indians thought the same: they mass -produced blades with fake European markings as a sign of the highest quality. How many British swords with fake Indian markings were manufactured in England? :-)))))

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by ariel

Angria was just snarking out his "sour grapes" :-)

All as always )))
Someone is searching through the primary sources, trying to let other people to know some new things, while someone is just looking at the old coins and get understanding of the truth immediately ))
Could you post some citations about

In fact, they were the object of awe and desire among the locals

Not of the color albums, but of travellers' descriptions. Be so kind.

[Mercenary]

Originally Posted by mahratt

Hi, Mercenary!

What do you think about European blade Indian pata sword? I remember that they are often found.

I think, and I have practised with pata-sword a lot, that for such weapon (and may be for broadswords in general, I am not sure) it is no difference what kind of blade there is. But not for tulwars (sabres).

P.S. I know about 1796 for irregular cavalry ))