Ottoman " shamshirs"

[ariel]

Here are 2 Ottoman Kilic Acemi ( pronounced Kilidzh Adzhemi), or " Persian swords".

I can send better pics, but they will have to be resized. Any help with it?

Generally, they resemble Mamluk swords with less pronounced Yelmans, and there are opinions that they are predecessors of the Pala. Any opinions?

[ariel]

OK, my feeble attempt to solve the size problem by myself:-(((

[ariel]

Both have bulbous rhino handles, a lot of silver, open slits at the throats.
The bigger one has complex fullering reminding me of Afghani pulwars ( interrupted fullers with flat panels in between). I have no doubt that if there is a real connection, it went from the Ottomans to the Afghanis, and not vice versa.
The lower one has "jaws" and "x x x" marks; whether real European trade or local imitation is uncertain to me, and opinions are welcome.

So, overall, opinions are welcome on any aspects: age, construction, influences etc, etc. No holds barred.

[Victrix]

I use picresize.com to resize pictures. It’s free and easy to use.

Nice swords. I think palas are quite different blades compared to your Kilic Acemi. Persian shamsirs typically have slender and extremely curved blades whereas palas have wide and almost angled blades. The resemblance comes mostly from the hilts. I would love to learn about different blade manufacturing centres in the Ottoman Empire and Persia (like Solingen, Toledo, Passau and Brescia in Europe).

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Victrix

I use picresize.com to resize pictures. It’s free and easy to use.

Nice swords. I think palas are quite different blades compared to your Kilic Acemi. Persian shamsirs typically have slender and extremely curved blades whereas palas have wide and almost angled blades. The resemblance comes mostly from the hilts. I would love to learn about different blade manufacturing centres in the Ottoman Empire and Persia (like Solingen, Toledo, Passau and Brescia in Europe).

Thanks for the resizing reference. I shall try it.

Palas are relatively late form, appearing around 18 century. One can imagine that they were redesigned from the purely cavalry long Mamluk swords into more infantry,- and navy- suitable shorter ones. And, of course, a bit of Ottoman flair might have also played a role:-)

[Kubur]

Originally Posted by ariel

The bigger one has complex fullering reminding me of Afghani pulwars ( interrupted fullers with flat panels in between). I have no doubt that if there is a real connection, it went from the Ottomans to the Afghanis, and not vice versa.

I think it's a bit more complicated than black and white or A and B...
It's not Ottoman to Afghani but more probably a common ancestor:
Central Asia to caucasus and Modern days Turkey and on the other side Iran/ Afghanistan...
In simple words it's not A and B
but more A to B and C
Hopefuly some members will understand...

and yes of course these swords paved the way to the pala

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Kubur

I think it's a bit more complicated than black and white or A and B...
It's not Ottoman to Afghani but more probably a common ancestor:
Central Asia to caucasus and Modern days Turkey and on the other side Iran/ Afghanistan...
In simple words it's not A and B
but more A to B and C
Hopefuly some members will understand...

and yes of course these swords paved the way to the pala

Of course there was a common ancestor: Southern Siberia:-)
From there Khazars and Alans, Bulgars and Kumans in Central Europe, Mamluks in Egypt, Seljuks in Anatolia, Uzbeks in India etc, etc, etc.

Afghani examples of interrupted fullering with flat panels in between are seen on 19 cen. blades, whereas Mamluk/Ottoman examples of this decorative element are seen up to several centuries earlier. The “ in-between” ( I.e. Persian) examples also date to 18-19 century.


Afghanis never invaded Ottoman Empire, but Turkish mercenaries served all over, as far as India. Therefore, IMHO, the West-to-East influence is just more likely. If you have alternative proofs , please let us know.