Chinese Jian sword

Bill M · 1st February 2007, 03:25 PM

Watching Athena's posts got me looking at my first collecting love, Chinese swords.

Pictured is a Jian or double edged sword. Blade is old and has good provenance. Polished by Phillip Tom.

Fittings are recent, but made in an acceptable traditional style, if more elaborate than traditional Jian. Dress is also recently made of old mahagony.

A long Jian of 31" OAL in scabbard.

Comments invited.

Mark · 1st February 2007, 03:52 PM

Wow. That is a beautiful piece, Bill. The handle fittings are very similar to those of a jian I once owned. The blade was that of a European rapier, which made it rather unusual, but with no activity in the steel.

What's the age estimate on the blade?

Bill M · 1st February 2007, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark

Wow. That is a beautiful piece, Bill. The handle fittings are very similar to those of a jian I once owned. The blade was that of a European rapier, which made it rather unusual, but with no activity in the steel.

What's the age estimate on the blade?

Hi Mark,

I always hate to throw numbers out, but Phillip and Scott Rodel (who also saw it) think it could easily be Ming Dynasty (1368 -1644 AD)

"The Ming Dynasty ruled over the Empire of the Great Ming (大明國; Dà Míng Guó), as China was then known." Wikipedia

BluErf · 3rd February 2007, 03:30 AM

Hey Bill,

Very very nice jian!

It reminded me to take photos of my short jian. Mine has even newer fittings, bordering on the rather fancy side, but nice enough. The jian is very hefty, with a consumerately substantial tang. It may have been a war sword, especially with the pommel ring.

I committed the sin of letting the sword rust more than a year ago and I am still doing 'penance' for that. More than a year ago, after I discovered the rust on the polished blade, I used autosol to get rid of the new rust, which covered the blade in straight polishing marks. I had been using sewing machine oil and tissue paper to polish those straight marks off the blade. After more than a year, I think I'm only a third done. Looks like I have 2 more years of 'penance' to go...

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Bill M · 3rd February 2007, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Hey Bill,

Very very nice jian!

It reminded me to take photos of my short jian. Mine has even newer fittings, bordering on the rather fancy side, but nice enough. The jian is very hefty, with a consumerately substantial tang. It may have been a war sword, especially with the pommel ring.

I committed the sin of letting the sword rust more than a year ago and I am still doing 'penance' for that. More than a year ago, after I discovered the rust on the polished blade, I used autosol to get rid of the new rust, which covered the blade in straight polishing marks. I had been using sewing machine oil and tissue paper to polish those straight marks off the blade. After more than a year, I think I'm only a third done. Looks like I have 2 more years of 'penance' to go...

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Hi Kai Wee,

Rust is something we all have to watch! I have found a few spots here and there on some of my other pieces that are really only noticeable in the strong photography lights. I have been cleaning also.

It looks like your blade started life in a longer shape. Notice the distance between the last dot and the tip of the blade? Usually this is the same distance as between the rest of the dots. This could indicate a reshaped tip. I have never seen a ring pommel on one before, but I confess this is not my area of expertise.

I have not heard of the size jian you and I have as being a "war sword." I thought that jian were usually civilian weapons, at least in the Qing dynasty. I don't have information about the Ming dynasty. Usually the military used Dao, single edged swords.

I have a reshaped "horse killer" jian that was originally about four feet long, that was used in battle. But it was my understanding that the shorter jian were traditional weapons of scholars and priests.

Did Phillip Tom polish your blade also?

Nice jian you have there! I think that we got them from the same seller.

BluErf · 3rd February 2007, 04:43 PM

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the info on the 7-stars. The 5 stars in the middle are nearly equi-distance while the one near the tip is very short, and the one nearest the guard is a wee bit shorter.

This is the first time that I've seen a pommel ring as well, but after removing the hilt (with great difficulty, as it is fixed through 2 holes in the tang, and I don't think the pegs can take another removal/reinsertion without breaking), I see that the ring is a continuation of the tang, with one end bent backwards and forged shut with the tang proper.

I understand that there is the 文剑 ("Wen Jian", or Scholar's sword) and the 武剑 ("Wu Jian", or fighter's/military sword) differentiation between Chinese swords. The latter being the side arms of military officers and more robustly built.

If a reference from a China-made movie is anything to go by (and I know movies can sometimes be terribly inaccurate), there is this film entitled "Heroes of Heaven & Earth" set in the Tang Dynasty. The protagonist was an officer in the Tang army based in the deserts on the Western frontier of the Tang empire. He refused an order from a superior officer to execute some Turkish or Uyghur female/children prisoners and the superior officer drew his sword to mete out punishment on the protagonist. Our hero drew his sword at about the same time, but because his was a short sword, he drew it faster and won the fight. He explained the phrase “短一寸，快三分” ("duan yi cun, kuai san fen" - shorter by an inch, faster by 3 short units of time) to his subordinates who fled with him after killing his superior. So if Chinese military officers could have used jian as side-arms, it could have been a short one, which could have been used more effectively in close quarter combat, much like the Roman gladius.

The other reason why I suspected the jian could have been a 'war sword' was because it was hefty, but not to the point of being unwieldy. The sword looks like it could take a lot of punishment with it's thick diamond cross section. A scholar's sword would presumably be lighter, thinner, more suited to a person who is not so strong (assuming Chinese scholars don't work out so much

).

You are right about the dao being the favourite Chinese weapon of all time, used by soldiers and brigands alike to chop up everybody.

The sword was purchased polished, by the seller himself; it's from Alex. I dare not let him know what has happened to the sword...

Meanwhile, I'll just keep polishing the sword daily until the last of the polishing marks are gone (I hope)...

1st February 2007, 03:25 PM	#1
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Chinese Jian sword Watching Athena's posts got me looking at my first collecting love, Chinese swords. Pictured is a Jian or double edged sword. Blade is old and has good provenance. Polished by Phillip Tom. Fittings are recent, but made in an acceptable traditional style, if more elaborate than traditional Jian. Dress is also recently made of old mahagony. A long Jian of 31" OAL in scabbard. Comments invited. Attached Images Last edited by Bill Marsh; 1st February 2007 at 03:55 PM.

3rd February 2007, 03:30 AM	#4
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hey Bill, Very very nice jian! It reminded me to take photos of my short jian. Mine has even newer fittings, bordering on the rather fancy side, but nice enough. The jian is very hefty, with a consumerately substantial tang. It may have been a war sword, especially with the pommel ring. I committed the sin of letting the sword rust more than a year ago and I am still doing 'penance' for that. More than a year ago, after I discovered the rust on the polished blade, I used autosol to get rid of the new rust, which covered the blade in straight polishing marks. I had been using sewing machine oil and tissue paper to polish those straight marks off the blade. After more than a year, I think I'm only a third done. Looks like I have 2 more years of 'penance' to go... http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Attached Images

1st February 2007, 03:52 PM	#2
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Wow. That is a beautiful piece, Bill. The handle fittings are very similar to those of a jian I once owned. The blade was that of a European rapier, which made it rather unusual, but with no activity in the steel. What's the age estimate on the blade?

3rd February 2007, 04:43 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Bill, Thanks for the info on the 7-stars. The 5 stars in the middle are nearly equi-distance while the one near the tip is very short, and the one nearest the guard is a wee bit shorter. This is the first time that I've seen a pommel ring as well, but after removing the hilt (with great difficulty, as it is fixed through 2 holes in the tang, and I don't think the pegs can take another removal/reinsertion without breaking), I see that the ring is a continuation of the tang, with one end bent backwards and forged shut with the tang proper. I understand that there is the 文剑 ("Wen Jian", or Scholar's sword) and the 武剑 ("Wu Jian", or fighter's/military sword) differentiation between Chinese swords. The latter being the side arms of military officers and more robustly built. If a reference from a China-made movie is anything to go by (and I know movies can sometimes be terribly inaccurate), there is this film entitled "Heroes of Heaven & Earth" set in the Tang Dynasty. The protagonist was an officer in the Tang army based in the deserts on the Western frontier of the Tang empire. He refused an order from a superior officer to execute some Turkish or Uyghur female/children prisoners and the superior officer drew his sword to mete out punishment on the protagonist. Our hero drew his sword at about the same time, but because his was a short sword, he drew it faster and won the fight. He explained the phrase “短一寸，快三分” ("duan yi cun, kuai san fen" - shorter by an inch, faster by 3 short units of time) to his subordinates who fled with him after killing his superior. So if Chinese military officers could have used jian as side-arms, it could have been a short one, which could have been used more effectively in close quarter combat, much like the Roman gladius. The other reason why I suspected the jian could have been a 'war sword' was because it was hefty, but not to the point of being unwieldy. The sword looks like it could take a lot of punishment with it's thick diamond cross section. A scholar's sword would presumably be lighter, thinner, more suited to a person who is not so strong (assuming Chinese scholars don't work out so much ). You are right about the dao being the favourite Chinese weapon of all time, used by soldiers and brigands alike to chop up everybody. The sword was purchased polished, by the seller himself; it's from Alex. I dare not let him know what has happened to the sword... Meanwhile, I'll just keep polishing the sword daily until the last of the polishing marks are gone (I hope)...