English made Kacchin Dha...

[spiral]

Just came across this old English catalogue excerpt. & I wonder how many of the "ethnographic" mono or shear steel Kachin Dha blades we see {1621.}, were actualy made in a factory in England?

Other stuff as well.....

spiral

[Gavin Nugent]

What a great find J, thanks for posting! Certainly makes for interesting consideration where non hairpin blades are concerned...Is it mentioned anywhere about outfitting Kachin soldiers loyal to the empire?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

What a great find J, thanks for posting! Certainly makes for interesting consideration where non hairpin blades are concerned...Is it mentioned anywhere about outfitting Kachin soldiers loyal to the empire?

Not in the old regimental histories Ive read so far Gav. {Still one relevant one to find.}

But many Kachin were attached to V force behind enemy lines in Burma in ww2 & most of v forces Lee Enfield's & stens were made in Peshawar ,Tribal territory NWF.. due to short supply from the Indian arsenals & sub contractors.

So I always assumed there dha & kukri were local or Indian made but who knows?

spiral

spiral

[Andrew]

Great find, Spiral! Thanks for sharing.

I'm reposting this old thread about a sword I picked up 10 years ago. British markings...

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002441.html

[Ian]

Spiral:

That's a very interesting old catalog. The prices for these machete seem quite high for the late 19th and early 20th C (when this company was still operating under the name "William Hunt and Sons, The Brade." Apart from the Kachin dha, the other examples don't really resemble the indigenous forms very closely. The Burmese dha, for example, is a short curved chopper with a three part hilt that sort of resembles a Burmese dha hilt. Whether any of these British made pieces ended up in SE Asia is unknown, but the price of purchase in Britain and then the shipping costs would make these items uncompetitive (on a cost basis) with locally produced swords. So these British-made items would likely have been for local consumption IMO, or perhaps bought by British companies for use elsewhere. They should not be hard to distinguish from the locally made forms.

Andrew:

I think your example is exactly what we have come to see in many former British colonies: locally produced arms but to specs that would have been determined by the British. These local items would have to meet those specs before being stamped with the official government marks. To me your example looks like a typical Shan sword and scabbard, circa 1900, with a sturdier than usual hilt and a scabbard bound with metal strips.

Incidentally, during WWII, many of the Kachin Rangers were outfitted with Shan-style dha as military issue, although some probably brought their own dha with them.



Ian.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Ian

Spiral:

That's a very interesting old catalog. The prices for these machete seem quite high for the late 19th and early 20th C (when this company was still operating under the name "William Hunt and Sons, The Brade." Apart from the Kachin dha, the other examples don't really resemble the indigenous forms very closely. The Burmese dha, for example, is a short curved chopper with a three part hilt that sort of resembles a Burmese dha hilt. Whether any of these British made pieces ended up in SE Asia is unknown, but the price of purchase in Britain and then the shipping costs would make these items uncompetitive (on a cost basis) with locally produced swords. So these British-made items would likely have been for local consumption IMO, or perhaps bought by British companies for use elsewhere. They should not be hard to distinguish from the locally made forms.

Andrew:

I think your example is exactly what we have come to see in many former British colonies: locally produced arms but to specs that would have been determined by the British. These local items would have to meet those specs before being stamped with the official government marks. To me your example looks like a typical Shan sword and scabbard, circa 1900, with a sturdier than usual hilt and a scabbard bound with metal strips.

Incidentally, during WWII, many of the Kachin Rangers were outfitted with Shan-style dha as military issue, although some probably brought their own dha with them.



Ian.

hi ian, interesting perspective.. I wonder who you think British companies sold such items to? Id guess catalogue prices were equivalent to todays... recommended retail price? I agree with you we have no evidence they were sold in south east asia ... but we also have no evidrnce they were not.

British made machetes ,cane knives & even kukri were in use around the world, in there usual countries exported by the UK .why do you think they wouldn't be in Burma? Standard colonial pattern while collecting the rubies & teak would be sell the locals the tools they needed as well.

The Burma police mark was BMP because it was the Burma military police about 20% of whom were Kachin.

Here's a photo showing a shan BMP chap with dha.


And also heres a great photo of a chindit with machete in Burma that also surprises many people.

spiral


photos in wrong order... you can work it out though...

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ian

Incidentally, during WWII, many of the Kachin Rangers were outfitted with Shan-style dha as military issue, although some probably brought their own dha with them.



Ian.

Ian, Do you have a reference you can cite for this?

The Kachin have long used Shan type Dah and in some cases learnt how to fight with double swords of the type from Shan states, states that are found to the south of and north west of the Kachin tribes.

I strongly suspect and believe US forces did not out fit these people with Shan type Dah and that the type was already in use when recruited.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Ian, Do you have a reference you can cite for this?

The Kachin have long used Shan type Dah and in some cases learnt how to fight with double swords of the type from Shan states, states that are found to the south of and north west of the Kachin tribes.

I strongly suspect and believe US forces did not out fit these people with Shan type Dah and that the type was already in use when recruited.

I think you may be correct there Gav, although not a great photo in detail when blown up x4 every single dha or dah seems a radically different design, when it comes to individual features.

A couple of different style as issue would be quite usual to my mind, every one being different implies private & personal pieces to my way of thinking.

But any evidence either way would be great...

spiral

[spiral]

British Kachin troops 1920s with dah or dha!

The chap with a shotgun is a policeman.

spiral

[Ian]

Originally Posted by spiral

I think you may be correct there Gav, although not a great photo in detail when blown up x4 every single dha or dah seems a radically different design, when it comes to individual features.

Spiral:

I see only two styles. The man at far left has a more expensive silver hilted dha but the others have similar swords: round straight hilts wrapped with rattan strips, in wooden scabbards wrapped with rattan strips. Standard Shan style working dha. These are the same two styles as shown in your other pictures. I just don't see anything radically different in any of these photographs. In fact, they appear remarkably consistent to me.

Ian.

[stephen wood]

Originally Posted by Ian

Spiral:

That's a very interesting old catalog. The prices for these machete seem quite high for the late 19th and early 20th C (when this company was still operating under the name "William Hunt and Sons, The Brade."

I think the price is per dozen...

[Ian]

Originally Posted by stephen wood

I think the price is per dozen...

Hi Stephen:

Yes, the price is per dozen, but if one does the calculation of cost per item (including shipping to Burma from England), we come out with a number that would have been beyond that affordable by the average Burmese in the early 1900s or today. I did the calculations in post #13 of this thread.

Ian.