Khyber knife

[rgremm]

Hello Everyone,
I picked up this knife in Kabul in the winter of 1970/71 at a shop catering to westerners. I know absolutely nothing about its origins or provenance. This bit of research is something I've wanted to do for a very long time and I'm hoping some of you may be able to offer some direction. It has the basic shape of what is called a Khyber knife and I acquired it not far from the pass and Pashtun territory. However it has some unusual features, the most enigmatic of which is the manufacturer or artisan's mark in the ricasso (also an unusual feature on knives from that area). The engraved silver work seems to imply ceremonial use but the blade is all business. It may be a tribal artifact but I've always thought it may be some sort of regimental issue from a unit associated with the area. The battered sheath provides a very secure friction fit. I have no idea why the tip was rolled up. Aside from polishing the silver and oiling the blade I've left everything as is. Thanks for any assistance you can render on this.
Rick Gremm

[derek]

Hi,
Really nice & certainly unusual. It almost looks like something between a khyber and what is often called a choora. The base of the blade extends in an unusual way - it almost makes me think the blade was longer at one time, but it does not look like it ends "abruptly". The floral swirls are more like Indian work. Definitely interesting and beautiful.
-d

[tom hyle]

My first feeling is that the blade is reground from an old sabre blade. Anyone else have this feel? Is there an overall pic and my computer didn't show it for some reason? Looks more like a pesh kabz or bytzak(?) than a salwar yatagan; a dagger more than a sword?

[ariel]

I fully agree with Tom: the blade is reground from a saber. There still is a shade of the old curvature, the fuller is excentric (and ends unnaturally) and the very existence of wide, military type, fuller is unheard of in Salawars. Look at the side effect of regrinding: an almost Indian ricasso. The handle is nice, though.

[Tim Simmons]

I also agree, the scabbard is a bit at odds with the the hilt and grip.Strange to pay a cutler to do all that work on the hilt and then put it in a rough scabbard.Tim

[Yannis]

In my opinion this knife, more a karud than a khyber knife, had 3 stages in its life.
First it was a saber, most possibly of a shashka form. Unfortunately it was broken.
In the second stage, a very skilful master, reshaped it as a karud. The hilt looks to be the original.
In the final stage, this piece was in the hands of a poor man who used a piece of scrap metal to make a scabbard.

I have an 18th century fine Persian card in a scabbard made from an 20th century brass artillery shell! I like it a lot. In my eyes these items are more “original” because they have a story to tell.

[rgremm]

I've had this for three decades now and I feel like I'm looking at it for the first time thanks to your many insights. Looking at the blade now it is clear that the fuller had parallel sides that continued on and the regrinding of the edge intersected one line while the last three cm of the back was ground in a gradual line past the top line. The blade is also very thick: 8.18 mm at the bottom of the back and 4.34 mm on the opposite side before the edge starts. This speaks to a much longer blade originally.

Montino speculated about a bayonet and I remember when I first picked it up I was so sure it was one I looked for the lug. I also agree with the emerging consensus that there is a story here. Whether bayonet or sword, it started as a fine piece of craftmanship and was skillfully transformed to a form consistent with local custom. The battered sheath tells us that it probably ended up in the hands of a poor Pathan and those people have always counted their weapons among their most prized possessions. I remember how colourfully they decorated and how meticulously they cared for their old Lee-Enfields and seemed to carry them everywhere.

The mark would still seem to be a key clue whether original or added later. Perhaps I'll see whether someone at an Asian Studies department would have a look at it.
Rick

[tom hyle]

Few bayonets start out by curving back, though many start out by curving forward, then curve back. I've been puzzling on the issue of the mark myself; it might help to know what it says, but by my info. it could be a maker's or owner's marks. It appears to have been struck with individual strokes. The long strokes have pointy ends, as if chiselled, but they look of even dpth, as if etched, but this could easily be a limitation of photography; what decides me are the individually struck dots. This work could have occurred at any time in the life of the weapon. The base of a thick sabre blade is not dis-similar in cross-section to a "T-back" blade, the main distinction being a heavier edge (the transition to the thick spine is more gradual and rounded, but similar). Certainly falling into the category of dagger, while many bitzak are clearly more knives.

[delor]

Hi,

it seems to me that the original blade needed to be large enough, so that it leave place to reground with the curved shape of the edge nearby the ricasso. A shashka would not fit because the fuller already takes most of the blade. Also the recasso seems to be resized, I think the blade was much larger (and much longer of course...)

[rgremm]

I've posted the inscription to the puzzle page of omniglot.com. They seem to do quite well at these sort of linguistic challenges. I'll keep you posted on results. Rick

[Jim McDougall]

Tom,
Thank you for observing and commenting on the clearly Islamic stamp in the blade and noting that this mark may have been added at any time during the working life of the blade including most likely the time of the alterations we are discussing. Therefore even a European blade may have received an Islamic marking during being reprofiled as in this case.

Ariel,
It is interesting to note that from early times captured weapons often became trophies, without even considering the developing prevalence of trade weapons. Therefore it would not only be possible, but even likely that a European blade may have been used even in an Islamic weapon, and so marked. That this practice occurred in medieval times is illustrated by Sir James Mann:
"...at an earlier period the late Baron de Cosson came into possession of a European, probably Italian sword of the middle XVth century, which is inscribed in Arabic: 'unalienably bequethed by al-Malik al Ashraf Barsbay-may his victory be glorious!-in the store houses of the victorious arms, in the frontier city of Sikandariya, the well guarded, from what came into his ownership, in the month of al-Muharram, of the year 836 (Aug-Sep 1432)".
from "A European Sword of the Late XIVth Century with an Arabic
Inscription" by Sir James Mann, Israel Exploration Society,
1963, L.A.Mayer Memorial Volume 7
In this article, this much esteemed author describes the many such European weapons found in Ottoman arsenals at Alexandria and Constantinople (St.Irene).

The use of European blades in native mounts is further illustrated in these comments in a narrative from 3rd Bengal Irregular cavalry c.1845 and the tulwars used by the Sikhs :
"...All the tulwars have wooden leather covered scabbards and contrary to the regulars weapons had a razor sharp edge which would be impossible to maintain with a steel scabbard. Strangely the blades were often obtained from the government and of the same pattern issued to the regulars* but mounted with asiatic hilts".
from article in Tradition magazine by Lt.Col. J.B.R.Nicholsen
(#21, p.12)

It seemed that this was a good opportunity to review the hybridization of weapons, as well as their often complex histories as they changed hands and as discussed here, often entire incarnations. Here they often transcended religious, political and cultural boundaries.

The location of the stamp on the blade of the example we discuss on this thread seems placed in accordance with many arsenal stamps, which would seem more likely than a makers stamp in my opinion. Makers took great pride in their blades, where refurbishing an existing blade, especially foreign as noted, would not necessarily elicit such personal marking. A captured blade, as noted in the quotes from Sir James Mann's article, would however seem likely to be marked to an armoury.

All in all, as Ariel has noted, our best guesses are just guesses, but as we all agree, these weapons have stories to tell, and this one is trying to talk to us!! I think we're on the right track!

Best regards,
Jim