African(?) Dagger

CourseEight · 2nd June 2008, 01:23 AM

I just won this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=008

I'm not sure about the seller's cut-down smallsword description, as I would think a bayonet is a more likely source for the blade. I've seen genoui with blades like this, but the handle on this one seems unusual, and I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this dagger. It almost looks like some kind of immitation bollock dagger...

Thanks a bunch,

--Radleigh

ariel · 2nd June 2008, 05:22 AM

I know, Lew is itching to get in, but... Just for the fun of it... Shi?

asomotif · 2nd June 2008, 07:48 AM

Bollocks dagger or kidney dagger is my first (and for the moment only) assosiation too.

Tim Simmons · 2nd June 2008, 08:18 AM

I could see something armour piercing from the Sahel or parts of West Africa with Islamic influences?

Nice.

Martin Lubojacky · 2nd June 2008, 04:55 PM

Hello,
I bought similar dagger from Touaregs near Ghadames (Libya) in 2002. The Touaregs were from Niger ("Ifoghaz" Touaregs). The blade should be made of old European bayonet.
Martin

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2008, 02:00 PM

In my opinion these weapons are not made from bayonets. On close inspection there is such variation in shapes, sections, straightness and many other subtleties. This is my latest and you can see at the tip that this is forged locally.

I pay top dollar but it love me long time.

Lew · 6th June 2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I know, Lew is itching to get in, but... Just for the fun of it... Shi?

Ariel

After picking up that Trabzon dagger I did not want to push my luck

Radleigh

Nice pick up reminds me of a ballock dagger.

Lew

CourseEight · 6th June 2008, 07:45 PM

Hi all, thanks for the responses. Sadly in spite of directing my attention to West Africa I have been unable to find a similar example; Martin if you have a chance to snap a picture of yours I'd love to see it!

Tim thank you for your pictures. I was watching the monitor lizard as well and I'm glad a forumite got it. I am attaching more pictures, with a genoui from Morroco for comparison. I know very little about bayonets but the genoui definitely has more of a bayonet sort of feel than does the "ballock". The "ballock" has a far greater profile taper and also a substantially different cross section.

Also just for fun and comparison, I'm attaching a picture from here showing some "dungeon daggers" which most closely resemble this one.

Thanks,
--Radleigh

Dom · 12th June 2008, 02:36 PM

Hi, Good day every body

just matter to introduce a doubt

may be, m'I completly out of pic ??

the general shape of the blade, remind me
"a rosalie" ... french army bayonet
(first model 1886 lenght 638 mm weight 460 g)
used with "Lebel" gun
that bayonet has been very often modified to be an hand weapon
here in France, or French colonies

some e.i.

à +

Dom

CourseEight · 12th June 2008, 04:23 PM

Dom --

It's kind of hard for me to tell from the pics, but I've drawn (to the best of my ability) what the cross section of the "ballock" knife looks like. The genoui I post as comparison (which I do think is a bayonet blade) has a more typical three-sided triangular cross section. I'm not sure this qualifies, since the third "side" of the triangle seems more like two convex sides, if I am making myself clear.

Anyway if it is a lebel that could certainly narrow the origins!

Thanks,

--Radleigh

Dom · 12th June 2008, 04:47 PM

"Rosalie" is four-side cross

I'm certain

because many workers was using it as "cross screw-driver" in past

sorry for disturbance

à +

Dom

Martin Lubojacky · 12th June 2008, 11:14 PM

Sorry for late answer. I will make a snap of my Tuareg dagger. However, I have it at home and I am leaving for a holliday (i.e. home) in July - so I will send it then

Martin Lubojacky · 18th July 2008, 02:05 PM

Enclosed please find promissed photos. This dagger was collected from Tuaregs near Ghadames (in Libya).

Tim Simmons · 19th July 2008, 10:46 AM

Interesting to see that the guard on the last exammple could be identical to the examples I post except they are covered in lizard skin and have rather different handles. Is this a regional difference? How do styles change in this vast sand sea? What are the main areas of manufacture? I have a telek that can be found in publications listed as being from Bornu. When I have my PC running I will pursue the matter further.

2nd June 2008, 01:23 AM	#1
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	African(?) Dagger I just won this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA:IT&ih=008 I'm not sure about the seller's cut-down smallsword description, as I would think a bayonet is a more likely source for the blade. I've seen genoui with blades like this, but the handle on this one seems unusual, and I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this dagger. It almost looks like some kind of immitation bollock dagger... Thanks a bunch, --Radleigh Attached Images

6th June 2008, 02:00 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	In my opinion these weapons are not made from bayonets. On close inspection there is such variation in shapes, sections, straightness and many other subtleties. This is my latest and you can see at the tip that this is forged locally. I pay top dollar but it love me long time. Attached Images

6th June 2008, 07:45 PM	#8
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Hi all, thanks for the responses. Sadly in spite of directing my attention to West Africa I have been unable to find a similar example; Martin if you have a chance to snap a picture of yours I'd love to see it! Tim thank you for your pictures. I was watching the monitor lizard as well and I'm glad a forumite got it. I am attaching more pictures, with a genoui from Morroco for comparison. I know very little about bayonets but the genoui definitely has more of a bayonet sort of feel than does the "ballock". The "ballock" has a far greater profile taper and also a substantially different cross section. Also just for fun and comparison, I'm attaching a picture from here showing some "dungeon daggers" which most closely resemble this one. Thanks, --Radleigh Attached Images

12th June 2008, 02:36 PM	#9
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Hi, Good day every body just matter to introduce a doubt may be, m'I completly out of pic ?? the general shape of the blade, remind me "a rosalie" ... french army bayonet (first model 1886 lenght 638 mm weight 460 g) used with "Lebel" gun that bayonet has been very often modified to be an hand weapon here in France, or French colonies some e.i. à + Dom Attached Images Last edited by Dom; 12th June 2008 at 04:35 PM.

12th June 2008, 04:23 PM	#10
CourseEight Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Coral Springs, FL Posts: 222	Dom -- It's kind of hard for me to tell from the pics, but I've drawn (to the best of my ability) what the cross section of the "ballock" knife looks like. The genoui I post as comparison (which I do think is a bayonet blade) has a more typical three-sided triangular cross section. I'm not sure this qualifies, since the third "side" of the triangle seems more like two convex sides, if I am making myself clear. Anyway if it is a lebel that could certainly narrow the origins! Thanks, --Radleigh Attached Images

2nd June 2008, 05:22 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I know, Lew is itching to get in, but... Just for the fun of it... Shi?

2nd June 2008, 07:48 AM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Bollocks dagger or kidney dagger is my first (and for the moment only) assosiation too.

2nd June 2008, 08:18 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I could see something armour piercing from the Sahel or parts of West Africa with Islamic influences? Nice.

2nd June 2008, 04:55 PM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hello, I bought similar dagger from Touaregs near Ghadames (Libya) in 2002. The Touaregs were from Niger ("Ifoghaz" Touaregs). The blade should be made of old European bayonet. Martin

12th June 2008, 04:47 PM	#11
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	"Rosalie" is four-side cross I'm certain because many workers was using it as "cross screw-driver" in past sorry for disturbance à + Dom

12th June 2008, 11:14 PM	#12
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Sorry for late answer. I will make a snap of my Tuareg dagger. However, I have it at home and I am leaving for a holliday (i.e. home) in July - so I will send it then

18th July 2008, 02:05 PM	#13
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Enclosed please find promissed photos. This dagger was collected from Tuaregs near Ghadames (in Libya). Attached Images

19th July 2008, 10:46 AM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Interesting to see that the guard on the last exammple could be identical to the examples I post except they are covered in lizard skin and have rather different handles. Is this a regional difference? How do styles change in this vast sand sea? What are the main areas of manufacture? I have a telek that can be found in publications listed as being from Bornu. When I have my PC running I will pursue the matter further.