Two Arab ex-Enfield Pattern 1853 guns

Mefidk · 30th July 2012, 05:17 PM

Following on from a previous thread where we discussed the amount of guns that were made by recycling British army gun parts, here are a couple that basically recycled the whole gun. Hope you like them.

These are as they arrived to me, totally untouched, hence the rust which I, and the other new co-owner will no doubt remove as soon as we can. The guns started out life as Enfield P53 rifles but ended up in a Swedish diplomat's house in Saudi Arabia before coming to me. The stocks have been condiderably modified, especially the more decorated gun and the barrels have been bored out smooth. I do think the the barrels are original though because they are the regulation 39 inches, correct calibre and have all the proof marks and army stamps still visible. Ramrods are the originals as are trigger guards and locks. One lock is a Tower lock, Crown VR and dated 1855, the other needs cleaning before we can see if there is legible date, but it looks as though its got the crown at least, and I believe is the original lock.
The original guns should have had a ladder sight but these have been removed and a more traditional pinhole sight has been added.

Looks to me like the silver work is done by the same person, but not at the same time - or someone tried to copy the pattern on to the second gun, but stopped decorating once they got to the wood work. The gun certainly has been used though, so it was not that they just never finished and packed the gun away. Interesting that on this one the enlarged butt end is actually part of the old stock where they have cut the rest of the wood away. On the more decorated gun the enlargement is separate, and decorated with studs, a back plate, and what looks like animal teeth.

Chris

colin henshaw · 30th July 2012, 08:20 PM

Most interesting Chris, thanks for posting. I like these cross-cultural type objects.

Regards.

kahnjar1 · 30th July 2012, 09:39 PM

Not teeth but likely claws---either animal or bird. I once owned a Khyber Jezail which also had these.
Nice guns by the way and I particularly like the more decorated one. In respect of "recycled" British guns and gun parts, it has to be remembered that the British held sway over a very large part of the Middle East and the Indian continent, and the quantity of guns around must have been huge.

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2012, 06:12 PM

Absolutely fascinating examples, and I think these now tribally associated guns are exciting as they were in use over such a long time, even into recent times. As always I am ever interested in the motifs and potential symbolism imbued in the decoration of these. I wonder if the 'claw' representation might be related to the talons of the falcon, I think a well established predator bird in the Arab world.
I am interested in the tacks used in motif as well, and while definitely not suggesting any connection, cannot help noticing the similarity to the decoration found on American Indian guns of the 19th century. I would presume these may be 'furniture' type tacks which were present in trade and 'settler' type situations. It seems that the cross was convergently present in many circumstances and often represents the four cardinal directions, a tribal representation of universal power.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st July 2012, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Absolutely fascinating examples, and I think these now tribally associated guns are exciting as they were in use over such a long time, even into recent times. As always I am ever interested in the motifs and potential symbolism imbued in the decoration of these. I wonder if the 'claw' representation might be related to the talons of the falcon, I think a well established predator bird in the Arab world.
I am interested in the tacks used in motif as well, and while definitely not suggesting any connection, cannot help noticing the similarity to the decoration found on American Indian guns of the 19th century. I would presume these may be 'furniture' type tacks which were present in trade and 'settler' type situations. It seems that the cross was convergently present in many circumstances and often represents the four cardinal directions, a tribal representation of universal power.

Salaams Jim, Tacks were used as ballast in Victorian times on ships bound for India and adorn many artefacts such as chests of furniture ... and in this case guns. Amazing claws in the butt !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Jim McDougall · 31st July 2012, 07:34 PM

Ouch!!!

claws in the butt!!
Im was hoping you would come in on this Ibrahiim!
Great note on the use of these materials as ballast. Interestingly the enormous volume of the glass beads which became trademark items in American Indian crafts were also ballast material.This again seems to represent the profound use of these otherwise common items from utility to decoration.
I wonder if there are characteristic motif in the decorative bands which might suggest any regional affinity?
Also, were there regions in Arabia which may have had more access to British guns than others? I have always been under the impression that flintlocks and even matchlocks were more prevalent in the more remote Bedouin tribes due to accessibility of ammunition and supplies. As we have discussed, trade from the Indian coastal regions in Sind brought considerable trade weapons to Muscat..perhaps obsolete British guns as well?

All the best,
Jim

30th July 2012, 05:17 PM	#1
Mefidk Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 157	Two Arab ex-Enfield Pattern 1853 guns Following on from a previous thread where we discussed the amount of guns that were made by recycling British army gun parts, here are a couple that basically recycled the whole gun. Hope you like them. These are as they arrived to me, totally untouched, hence the rust which I, and the other new co-owner will no doubt remove as soon as we can. The guns started out life as Enfield P53 rifles but ended up in a Swedish diplomat's house in Saudi Arabia before coming to me. The stocks have been condiderably modified, especially the more decorated gun and the barrels have been bored out smooth. I do think the the barrels are original though because they are the regulation 39 inches, correct calibre and have all the proof marks and army stamps still visible. Ramrods are the originals as are trigger guards and locks. One lock is a Tower lock, Crown VR and dated 1855, the other needs cleaning before we can see if there is legible date, but it looks as though its got the crown at least, and I believe is the original lock. The original guns should have had a ladder sight but these have been removed and a more traditional pinhole sight has been added. Looks to me like the silver work is done by the same person, but not at the same time - or someone tried to copy the pattern on to the second gun, but stopped decorating once they got to the wood work. The gun certainly has been used though, so it was not that they just never finished and packed the gun away. Interesting that on this one the enlarged butt end is actually part of the old stock where they have cut the rest of the wood away. On the more decorated gun the enlargement is separate, and decorated with studs, a back plate, and what looks like animal teeth. Chris Attached Images

30th July 2012, 08:20 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Most interesting Chris, thanks for posting. I like these cross-cultural type objects. Regards.

30th July 2012, 09:39 PM	#3
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	Not teeth but likely claws---either animal or bird. I once owned a Khyber Jezail which also had these. Nice guns by the way and I particularly like the more decorated one. In respect of "recycled" British guns and gun parts, it has to be remembered that the British held sway over a very large part of the Middle East and the Indian continent, and the quantity of guns around must have been huge.

31st July 2012, 06:12 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Absolutely fascinating examples, and I think these now tribally associated guns are exciting as they were in use over such a long time, even into recent times. As always I am ever interested in the motifs and potential symbolism imbued in the decoration of these. I wonder if the 'claw' representation might be related to the talons of the falcon, I think a well established predator bird in the Arab world. I am interested in the tacks used in motif as well, and while definitely not suggesting any connection, cannot help noticing the similarity to the decoration found on American Indian guns of the 19th century. I would presume these may be 'furniture' type tacks which were present in trade and 'settler' type situations. It seems that the cross was convergently present in many circumstances and often represents the four cardinal directions, a tribal representation of universal power.

31st July 2012, 07:34 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	Ouch!!! claws in the butt!! Im was hoping you would come in on this Ibrahiim! Great note on the use of these materials as ballast. Interestingly the enormous volume of the glass beads which became trademark items in American Indian crafts were also ballast material.This again seems to represent the profound use of these otherwise common items from utility to decoration. I wonder if there are characteristic motif in the decorative bands which might suggest any regional affinity? Also, were there regions in Arabia which may have had more access to British guns than others? I have always been under the impression that flintlocks and even matchlocks were more prevalent in the more remote Bedouin tribes due to accessibility of ammunition and supplies. As we have discussed, trade from the Indian coastal regions in Sind brought considerable trade weapons to Muscat..perhaps obsolete British guns as well? All the best, Jim