Silver Pedang Lurus ???

Norman McCormick · 1st February 2014, 05:08 PM

Hi,
My first venture into these types. As per the title I think

this is a Javanese Pedang Lurus complete with 'magical' symbology inscribed into the blade. I would appreciate all and any help that you can give re the description, age, use, and the symbols. Many thanks.
Regards,
Norman.

CharlesS · 1st February 2014, 07:55 PM

Norman,

This is a lovely example of a pedang lurus, with a nice pamor to boot! I have to think the blade markings are talismanic, but cannot say for sure. They surely do not look like any of motifs found on recent tourist pieces.

I'd place the age at late 19th century to early 20th, but these blades can fool you.

I hope we can find out more about those markings.

A. G. Maisey · 1st February 2014, 08:12 PM

Yes Norman, a Javanese pedang, it is straight, thus "lurus", it is pointed and designed to stab rather than slash, so "suduk" or "tusuk".

Dress appears to be 19th century, probably second half of the 19th century, might be a bit earlier or a bit later, but definitely pre-WWII; the ornamentation uses common Javanese motifs; the material is very probably mamas, an alloy similar to nickel silver. The blade is probably older, I cannot classify according to the Javanese system from a photo. Swords are used to kill things. The same is true of Javanese swords as is true of any other sword. Swords were and are worn by palace guards in Central Jawa, and this could be one application for this type of sword. You will see the palace soldiers wearing swords like this in the processions that mark the various high days of the palace calendar.

The blade impressions I cannot read, and it is entirely possible that nobody but the person who placed them on the blade could read them or understand their meaning. Some of the symbols give the appearance of letters, in comparison with the 9 or 10 ancient letter forms, including Kawi, and the variations of which I am aware in Modern Javanese forms (honocoroko or hanacaraka) there is too little agreement to permit any guess at what the intended meaning might be. In Jawa various groups would have their own secret language that only the members of the group could understand, so when we see inscriptions that might have been intended to have some sort of esoteric meaning very often that inscription will either be nonsense when common characters have been used to write it, or may be totally unintelligible when some form of non-standard character has been used.

David · 1st February 2014, 11:28 PM

Magical alphabet systems are many as a google search will tell and you probably won't find one that matches these characters as i am sure countless systems have never been recorded. That said, my only comment on these characters is that they seem rather cleanly carved into the blade and make me suspect they may have been a much later addition.

Norman McCormick · 2nd February 2014, 05:20 PM

Hi,
Many thanks gents for your interest and information. Here are some stats, O.A. length 47cm blade length 34 cm, I don't know if the size is sufficient to call it a sword maybe more a long knife. Re the symbols on the blade, there's a nice taper from hilt to tip and the depth of the characters gradually get shallower as one travels toward the tip possibly pointing to some shaping of the blade after the characters were incised into the blade but I will have to bow to your far greater expertise with these type of blades. Thanks once again.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. Is there anything particular I should be doing to preserve this type of blade other than or instead of my normal oiling.

Sajen · 2nd February 2014, 06:25 PM

Hi Norman,

very nice pedang suduk! When I am you I would do nothing more to the blade as oiling, the pamor is good visible so it doesn't need a new stain.
Here some pictures of my example. The fittings are from silver and the scabbard have an old local repair.

Regards,

Detlef

Norman McCormick · 2nd February 2014, 07:07 PM

Hi Detlef,
Nice to see another one, yours appears to have a longer blade, can you post sizes?
My Regards,
Norman.

Sajen · 2nd February 2014, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Detlef,
Nice to see another one, yours appears to have a longer blade, can you post sizes?
My Regards,
Norman.

Hi Norman,

it's from the size very similar, OA 48 cm, blade is 34,5 cm.

Regards,

Detlef

Norman McCormick · 2nd February 2014, 11:00 PM

Hi Detlef,
Many thanks for the info.
My Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 21st March 2014, 08:18 PM

Hi,
Was showing this piece to a friend who is a native Farsi speaker but who is also very knowledgeable regarding religious text in Arabic. She recognised the text from the mid point of the blade to the tip. On one side it reads, Mohammed Messenger of God, followed by a type of 'shorthand' which translates as 'PBOH' i.e. Peace be on Him. The other side of the blade was too indistinct for a full translation and the only word she could be sure of was 'Mohammed', the full text was probably the same or similar to the opposing side. She suggested that the other 'odd letters' were a form of magic writing which she thought was vaguely familiar but couldn't pin down. Hope this is of some interest.
Regards,
Norman.

1st February 2014, 05:08 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Silver Pedang Lurus ??? Hi, My first venture into these types. As per the title I think this is a Javanese Pedang Lurus complete with 'magical' symbology inscribed into the blade. I would appreciate all and any help that you can give re the description, age, use, and the symbols. Many thanks. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

2nd February 2014, 05:20 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, Many thanks gents for your interest and information. Here are some stats, O.A. length 47cm blade length 34 cm, I don't know if the size is sufficient to call it a sword maybe more a long knife. Re the symbols on the blade, there's a nice taper from hilt to tip and the depth of the characters gradually get shallower as one travels toward the tip possibly pointing to some shaping of the blade after the characters were incised into the blade but I will have to bow to your far greater expertise with these type of blades. Thanks once again. Regards, Norman. P.S. Is there anything particular I should be doing to preserve this type of blade other than or instead of my normal oiling. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 2nd February 2014 at 07:03 PM.

2nd February 2014, 06:25 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Hi Norman, very nice pedang suduk! When I am you I would do nothing more to the blade as oiling, the pamor is good visible so it doesn't need a new stain. Here some pictures of my example. The fittings are from silver and the scabbard have an old local repair. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

1st February 2014, 07:55 PM	#2
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Norman, This is a lovely example of a pedang lurus, with a nice pamor to boot! I have to think the blade markings are talismanic, but cannot say for sure. They surely do not look like any of motifs found on recent tourist pieces. I'd place the age at late 19th century to early 20th, but these blades can fool you. I hope we can find out more about those markings.

1st February 2014, 08:12 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,882	Yes Norman, a Javanese pedang, it is straight, thus "lurus", it is pointed and designed to stab rather than slash, so "suduk" or "tusuk". Dress appears to be 19th century, probably second half of the 19th century, might be a bit earlier or a bit later, but definitely pre-WWII; the ornamentation uses common Javanese motifs; the material is very probably mamas, an alloy similar to nickel silver. The blade is probably older, I cannot classify according to the Javanese system from a photo. Swords are used to kill things. The same is true of Javanese swords as is true of any other sword. Swords were and are worn by palace guards in Central Jawa, and this could be one application for this type of sword. You will see the palace soldiers wearing swords like this in the processions that mark the various high days of the palace calendar. The blade impressions I cannot read, and it is entirely possible that nobody but the person who placed them on the blade could read them or understand their meaning. Some of the symbols give the appearance of letters, in comparison with the 9 or 10 ancient letter forms, including Kawi, and the variations of which I am aware in Modern Javanese forms (honocoroko or hanacaraka) there is too little agreement to permit any guess at what the intended meaning might be. In Jawa various groups would have their own secret language that only the members of the group could understand, so when we see inscriptions that might have been intended to have some sort of esoteric meaning very often that inscription will either be nonsense when common characters have been used to write it, or may be totally unintelligible when some form of non-standard character has been used.

1st February 2014, 11:28 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,115	Magical alphabet systems are many as a google search will tell and you probably won't find one that matches these characters as i am sure countless systems have never been recorded. That said, my only comment on these characters is that they seem rather cleanly carved into the blade and make me suspect they may have been a much later addition.

2nd February 2014, 07:07 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Detlef, Nice to see another one, yours appears to have a longer blade, can you post sizes? My Regards, Norman.

2nd February 2014, 11:00 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi Detlef, Many thanks for the info. My Regards, Norman.

21st March 2014, 08:18 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, Was showing this piece to a friend who is a native Farsi speaker but who is also very knowledgeable regarding religious text in Arabic. She recognised the text from the mid point of the blade to the tip. On one side it reads, Mohammed Messenger of God, followed by a type of 'shorthand' which translates as 'PBOH' i.e. Peace be on Him. The other side of the blade was too indistinct for a full translation and the only word she could be sure of was 'Mohammed', the full text was probably the same or similar to the opposing side. She suggested that the other 'odd letters' were a form of magic writing which she thought was vaguely familiar but couldn't pin down. Hope this is of some interest. Regards, Norman.