A Modified Sword, but what is it now ?

drac2k · 28th October 2016, 12:36 AM

I recently acquired this sword which was listed as a hunting cutlass,and it may well be , however, I was wondering where this blade originally came from, are there any other examples such as this,how old is it, etc., etc.
I do acknowledge that I may have purchased some person's recent metal shop project, but darn, he(or she), did a great job!
I would guess that it has an Eastern European look to it based on nothing else than a feeling.

VANDOO · 28th October 2016, 06:50 AM

MOST OF THESE I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN THE SHORTER MORE COMMON HUNTING SWORDS. THIS ONE LOOKS TO BE A FULL SIZE SWORD BUT SHOWS THE AGE AND ENGRAVINGS I ASSOCIATE WITH THE ENGLISH HUNTING SWORDS.
IT LOOKS LIKE AN AUTHENTIC GOOD QUALITY SWORD TO ME AND COMPLETE WITH SCABBARD. ITS NOT MY FIELD BUT I AM SURE SOMEONE WILL COME ALONG SOON TO HELP YOU WITH MORE INFORMATION. A VERY NICE SWORD.

HERE IS A PICTURE OF SOME SIMILAR SWORDS THESE ARE POLISH. I THINK YOURS MAY BE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY.

drac2k · 28th October 2016, 11:12 AM

Thanks VANDOO, I think you are spot on .It looks to me to be a reconfigured sword.The blade measures approx. 26" long,it has been re-tipped into a spear point and about a third of it has a sharpened "false edge," on the backside.

Roland_M · 28th October 2016, 11:48 AM

The blade looks like a Shashka blade, maybe an early Zlatoust-blade.

Roland

Jim McDougall · 28th October 2016, 09:56 PM

The hunting cutlass description is actually somewhat understandable as the hilt on this is likely a continental 'hirschfanger' which was the German term for hunting sword or coute de chasse (French). These most commonly were with grips of staghorn, ebony or sometimes ivory or bone. These are clearly modern replacement (beautifully done in wood!).
The blade and what appears to be its scabbard is indeed also Continental European, and the style of motif and bluing as well as early 19th c. military officers mounts suggest from an officers sabre. The sabres posted by Vandoo are with the karabela style hilt, while well known in Poland, and much favored on European hunting type swords.

The Zlatoust suggestion is interesting and as far as being a shashka it could be thought of in that term as Russian officers sabres were often called by that term, although obviously not the sabres we refer to as such. Russian military swords often followed French styles, and this seems to have a French or German military feel.

Russians often remounted trophy/award/diplomatic gift blades on other style hilts which were either presented to officers or sometimes heirloom type circumstances.

Hunting swords were often within the scope of officers military dress swords as the hunt was a status oriented situation where military and other fashion in weapons and accoutrements were quite de rigueur. This is why hunting and court swords are often seen paired in references.

drac2k · 29th October 2016, 01:37 PM

As always I found the above comments informative and interesting;the possible Russian association and in particular the possibility of it being a trophy piece and the recent handle replacements.
First, let me say that I think that this is a real fighting weapon.It has already been mentioned that the blade length is a bit too long for a hunting cutlass.It has been sharpened (it looks to be arsenal done), as I have seen on many bayonets; the upper two- thirds and the back spine(1/3), has also been sharpened.
Another clue was given to me with the Russian association and the possibility of it being a captured piece. While it may not be Russian, it certainly could be Balkan.
The statement that got me thinking the most was Jim's assertion that the handle was a recent replacement; this I must admit, I did not realize, however, what had struck me were the screws/rivets that held the handles on.I had seen these before, on a modern(pre -1919), Turkish sword.
So now for my flawed, highly improbable conclusion/ theory ; I believe that the sword could be Ottoman Turk, circa 1880 to 1919. To summarize, we have a trophy, captured repurposed blade, too long to be a cutlass, sharpened for fighting, with what I believe not to be replacement handles(I think the handles are as old as the reconfigured piece, late 19th to early 20th century;they are just too well fitted to the piece), with what I believe to be pre-WW1 rivets/screws that I have seen on other modern Turkish swords.

corrado26 · 29th October 2016, 02:28 PM

The mark on the blade's back is probably be the socalled Rose of Solingen and the "A" and "K" might stand for Abraham Kratz or Abraham Kirschbaum.
corrado26

drac2k · 29th October 2016, 02:52 PM

Thanks for the information.The sword maker Abraham Kirshbaum was founded in 1883, so that could conform to my timeline and the Germans were allied with the Turks in WW1, so that certainly could be the original source of the blade.

28th October 2016, 12:36 AM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,217	A Modified Sword, but what is it now ? I recently acquired this sword which was listed as a hunting cutlass,and it may well be , however, I was wondering where this blade originally came from, are there any other examples such as this,how old is it, etc., etc. I do acknowledge that I may have purchased some person's recent metal shop project, but darn, he(or she), did a great job! I would guess that it has an Eastern European look to it based on nothing else than a feeling. Attached Images

28th October 2016, 06:50 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MOST OF THESE I HAVE SEEN HAVE BEEN THE SHORTER MORE COMMON HUNTING SWORDS. THIS ONE LOOKS TO BE A FULL SIZE SWORD BUT SHOWS THE AGE AND ENGRAVINGS I ASSOCIATE WITH THE ENGLISH HUNTING SWORDS. IT LOOKS LIKE AN AUTHENTIC GOOD QUALITY SWORD TO ME AND COMPLETE WITH SCABBARD. ITS NOT MY FIELD BUT I AM SURE SOMEONE WILL COME ALONG SOON TO HELP YOU WITH MORE INFORMATION. A VERY NICE SWORD. HERE IS A PICTURE OF SOME SIMILAR SWORDS THESE ARE POLISH. I THINK YOURS MAY BE FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 28th October 2016 at 07:16 AM.

28th October 2016, 11:12 AM	#3
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,217	Thanks VANDOO, I think you are spot on .It looks to me to be a reconfigured sword.The blade measures approx. 26" long,it has been re-tipped into a spear point and about a third of it has a sharpened "false edge," on the backside.

28th October 2016, 11:48 AM	#4
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 525	The blade looks like a Shashka blade, maybe an early Zlatoust-blade. Roland

28th October 2016, 09:56 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,896	The hunting cutlass description is actually somewhat understandable as the hilt on this is likely a continental 'hirschfanger' which was the German term for hunting sword or coute de chasse (French). These most commonly were with grips of staghorn, ebony or sometimes ivory or bone. These are clearly modern replacement (beautifully done in wood!). The blade and what appears to be its scabbard is indeed also Continental European, and the style of motif and bluing as well as early 19th c. military officers mounts suggest from an officers sabre. The sabres posted by Vandoo are with the karabela style hilt, while well known in Poland, and much favored on European hunting type swords. The Zlatoust suggestion is interesting and as far as being a shashka it could be thought of in that term as Russian officers sabres were often called by that term, although obviously not the sabres we refer to as such. Russian military swords often followed French styles, and this seems to have a French or German military feel. Russians often remounted trophy/award/diplomatic gift blades on other style hilts which were either presented to officers or sometimes heirloom type circumstances. Hunting swords were often within the scope of officers military dress swords as the hunt was a status oriented situation where military and other fashion in weapons and accoutrements were quite de rigueur. This is why hunting and court swords are often seen paired in references.

29th October 2016, 01:37 PM	#6
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,217	As always I found the above comments informative and interesting;the possible Russian association and in particular the possibility of it being a trophy piece and the recent handle replacements. First, let me say that I think that this is a real fighting weapon.It has already been mentioned that the blade length is a bit too long for a hunting cutlass.It has been sharpened (it looks to be arsenal done), as I have seen on many bayonets; the upper two- thirds and the back spine(1/3), has also been sharpened. Another clue was given to me with the Russian association and the possibility of it being a captured piece. While it may not be Russian, it certainly could be Balkan. The statement that got me thinking the most was Jim's assertion that the handle was a recent replacement; this I must admit, I did not realize, however, what had struck me were the screws/rivets that held the handles on.I had seen these before, on a modern(pre -1919), Turkish sword. So now for my flawed, highly improbable conclusion/ theory ; I believe that the sword could be Ottoman Turk, circa 1880 to 1919. To summarize, we have a trophy, captured repurposed blade, too long to be a cutlass, sharpened for fighting, with what I believe not to be replacement handles(I think the handles are as old as the reconfigured piece, late 19th to early 20th century;they are just too well fitted to the piece), with what I believe to be pre-WW1 rivets/screws that I have seen on other modern Turkish swords.

29th October 2016, 02:28 PM	#7
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,198	The mark on the blade's back is probably be the socalled Rose of Solingen and the "A" and "K" might stand for Abraham Kratz or Abraham Kirschbaum. corrado26

29th October 2016, 02:52 PM	#8
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,217	Thanks for the information.The sword maker Abraham Kirshbaum was founded in 1883, so that could conform to my timeline and the Germans were allied with the Turks in WW1, so that certainly could be the original source of the blade.