Keris Basics

Michael · 6th January 2005, 11:30 AM

hi

I’m new there so please forgive me if I’m asking something that has been asked several times already. I’ve relocated recently in Indonesia and since I’m interested in keris I’ve been shopping aroung to look for original ones.
However, I’ve been quite disappointed since it seems to me that most of the keris I saw where not originals. The point is that I’m not really sure about that: I’ve been comparing the quality replica sold at shops like mirota and I just couldn’t really see the difference with the ones sold in cities like Joja for instance. I’ve been around the kraton and close to malioboro, but keris salers were more keen to speak about magics than about their keris themselves: a lot of them were with golden naga (even entwined ones) and i couldn't make out whether those keris were fake or simply commonplace in older times …I’ve seen on the forum that experience was the best way to learn about it, but I believe that there are also a few technical & basic points that can be checked to avoid basic errors (ganja & blade separated…) : would you be kind enough to list the ones you think about?

I’ve also taken a few pics: what do you think about these?

Ps: a lot of pics have been erased in the previous forums thus diminishing a bit the tips given previously

BluErf · 6th January 2005, 04:11 PM

Hi Michael,

Welcome to the forum.

First off, I think you should remove any price tags on your kerises before you ask fellow forumnites of their opinions. It is sometimes quite amazing what a price tag can do to influence opinions.

Anyway, to your general questions of how to tell real kerises from fake kerises, I think it depends on what your definition of a 'real' and 'fake' keris is. To me, there are no 'fakes', only poorly-made ones, or well-made ones, fanciful/'touristy' ones or traditional ones.

The best way to equip yourself with the knowledge to tell the differences between kerises is to read and look at pictures. You can check up http://www.ethnographicartbooks.com/ to search for some of these kinds of books.

nechesh · 7th January 2005, 12:04 AM

Michael, welcome to the forum. BluErf makes some very good suggestions. The more good keris you look at, the easier it will be to tell the bad ones. I tend to agree on the issue of fakes. A keris, IMO, can be deemed a fake only if it is being presented to you as something it is not (i.e. a newly made keris being sold as 17th, 18th, 19th Century). Please remember, high quality keris are still being made, it is a living art form. A few quick points:
1. If someone is offering you a "gold" keris naga for less than many (MANY) thousands of dollars, it is not an authentic old piece. Even at the source in Jawa, high quality old pieces sell at a premium. If it's too cheap, there is probably a reason. Gold keris naga or even keris naga w/o gold adornment were NEVER commonplace in old times.
2. A keris without a seperate gonjo is NOT a basic sign of a new OR poorly made keris. Though old Gonjo Iras (one piece) keris are rare they do exist. I have a rather nice early 19thC one in my own collection. Though probably made this way to save the original buyer a little money, they have now become very collectable due to their scarcity.
3. I don't know if the blades you show are yours, but for the most part their quality appears fairly low. The keris singo in the first pic might have some age and be fairly decent, but i wouldn't be able to tell you from the provided picture. For some reason, someone stuck a Javanese mendak on the Bugis keris on the left in the second pic. If this keris is yours i would remove it as it doesn't belong on this keris. The keris naga in the third photo looks like it might have been a later addition on an older blade. It appears to be poorly carved and there are signs it is not original to the blade.
4. Here is the short list of some books you might get to help you in your appreciation of keris:
a) "The World of the Javanese Keris", Garrett and Bronwen Solyom
b) "The Kris", Edward Frey (get the 3rd Ed.; more photos)
c) "Kris the Invincible", Vanna e Mario Ghiringhelli (small, but brillant photos)
d) "The Kris-an Earthly Approach to a Cosmic Symbol", David van Duuren
e) "De Kris - Magic Relic of Old Indonesia - Vol. I, II, and III", G,J.F.J. Tammens
As i say, this is the short list of books written in English, but since living in Indonesia you probably know the language, you should find even more available to you.
You also might find this web site of interest: http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/

Michael · 7th January 2005, 03:33 AM

By fake, I indeed meant that they had been presented as old keris while they were actually recent ones (so i should be rephrasing into: how to distinguish a touristy keris from an original one?)
For the criteria of the ganja, well, I guess that this could still be considered as a good point to start with : if it is that hard to find some old keris, what are my chances to find one of those rare original keris without a ganja? If you can find of some other practical advice, please don’t hesitate.
Thanks also for the books, those in English should be especially useful since my knowledge of Indonesian is not good enough yet to go through an entire book!! i don't think gramedia's got anythg about keris, but i'll check 4 the encyclopedia...
As for the pics, no I didn’t buy those keris…it’s just that they didn’t look like the more touristic keris I saw previously. It’s nice to know the singa one could be an old one, even though the quality is poor..’gives some courage to continue looking around…expect new pics! (hope more interesting ones

)

michael

tom hyle · 7th January 2005, 05:54 AM

Your chances are either 100% or zero; it'll either happen or it won't; odds and statistics are for aggregate reality; don't rely on them in real life; don't be inclined to deny reality if it seems unlikely.....my two cents. Likewise, it's not uncommon to see modern pieces that are all one layered billet with continuous grain, rather than a sandwich with a central cutting steel and a seperate pamor layer on each side, but that doesn't mean no old ones are made that way. It's very hard to cook down any sort of hard and fast easily stated rule about this stuff, and harder with kris than with most things, because of the living nature of that art, because of its sense of history, because metal does not neccessarily age in any objectively definable way (ie. the level of corrosion/patination varies basically infinitely with conditions; much moreso than with time per se), because people deliberately make new ones to be like old ones (and the better of the new ones are not viewed with disregard by many keris afficionadi), and because they have served as a field for artistic variation to such an extraordinary degree for a very long time. Also, there is a great variety in interest that varies by person or community; there are k(e)ris people who consider them ruined if the "stain" is rusted or sanded off, for instance, while others might simply re-etch/re-stain, and others might prefer to oil the rust, and love it for the patina. It can be interesting how different markets or different groups can be interested in the same thing, but for different reasons, and from different angles, and kris are one of those things.

nechesh · 7th January 2005, 04:10 PM

Hi Rahman. I believe what i described was a keris w/o a SEPERATE gonjo, in other words, it is not a seperately forged piece of metal, the keris is all one piece. This is what i understand to be gonjo iras. I did not describe a keris that was sold w/o a gonjo, as in missing a gonjo that was originally there, if that is what you mean. I'm not sure i understand your distinction.

rasdan · 7th January 2005, 03:15 AM

Hi Michael,

Nice to have u in this forum. Perhaps it is almost impossible to list all criteria for a good keris. It is subjective and u have to define your own standards. I think what u need to do is:

1. Avoid buying anything first. At least you had to spend 2 months studying first. Study the standard text (which nechesh had pointed out). It would be helpful if u can read malay or indonesian as since some good literature such as Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi Keris is written in Indonesian.

2. Look at ebay kerisses everyday using all searchword

and comparing prices,

3. Get to know people who are really involved in this for quite some time, find fellow colectors around etc.

4. Handle or at least look at keris pictures (lots of it)

5. Finally, set an objective on what u want to achieve in collecting. If u dont set this, u may found yourself with lots (LOTS) of kerisses in the end of the day.

Theres some javaneese keris yahoo groups available. Perhaps u can meet some people through the groups. If u directly goes to the market and buy it, the probability of u got a fake is quite high. To me, keeping a few very good ones is better than having hundreds of average ones. Expensive ones does not mean good ones. (Depending on your objective and pre-selected criteria) Well, i'm not so great in this, but i think this can be used as a general rule.

Good luck,
Rasdan

rahman · 7th January 2005, 03:25 AM

Dear Michael

Being posted to Indonesia, you're lucky to be right where the 'action' is. There's good advice about looking and feeling before buying. As a beginner myself, I've learnt a lot from the forums here.

You might also want to avail yourself of the Ensaiklopedi Keris by Bambang Harsrinuksmo. It's in Bahasa Indonesia with lots of photos and lots of Javanese terminology. I think it's available at Gramedia bookstores.

Re nechesh's comment about keris gonjo iras, you should differentiate between the keris with a line drawn where the ganja is suposed to be (ganja iras) and a keris sold without a ganja (as you descirbed it).

6th January 2005, 11:30 AM	#1
Michael Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 3	Keris Basics hi I’m new there so please forgive me if I’m asking something that has been asked several times already. I’ve relocated recently in Indonesia and since I’m interested in keris I’ve been shopping aroung to look for original ones. However, I’ve been quite disappointed since it seems to me that most of the keris I saw where not originals. The point is that I’m not really sure about that: I’ve been comparing the quality replica sold at shops like mirota and I just couldn’t really see the difference with the ones sold in cities like Joja for instance. I’ve been around the kraton and close to malioboro, but keris salers were more keen to speak about magics than about their keris themselves: a lot of them were with golden naga (even entwined ones) and i couldn't make out whether those keris were fake or simply commonplace in older times …I’ve seen on the forum that experience was the best way to learn about it, but I believe that there are also a few technical & basic points that can be checked to avoid basic errors (ganja & blade separated…) : would you be kind enough to list the ones you think about? I’ve also taken a few pics: what do you think about these? Ps: a lot of pics have been erased in the previous forums thus diminishing a bit the tips given previously Attached Images

7th January 2005, 03:33 AM	#4
Michael Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Indonesia Posts: 3	Thanks a lot for your replies! By fake, I indeed meant that they had been presented as old keris while they were actually recent ones (so i should be rephrasing into: how to distinguish a touristy keris from an original one?) For the criteria of the ganja, well, I guess that this could still be considered as a good point to start with : if it is that hard to find some old keris, what are my chances to find one of those rare original keris without a ganja? If you can find of some other practical advice, please don’t hesitate. Thanks also for the books, those in English should be especially useful since my knowledge of Indonesian is not good enough yet to go through an entire book!! i don't think gramedia's got anythg about keris, but i'll check 4 the encyclopedia... As for the pics, no I didn’t buy those keris…it’s just that they didn’t look like the more touristic keris I saw previously. It’s nice to know the singa one could be an old one, even though the quality is poor..’gives some courage to continue looking around…expect new pics! (hope more interesting ones ) michael Last edited by Michael; 7th January 2005 at 04:40 AM.

7th January 2005, 03:15 AM	#7
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 368	Hi Michael, Nice to have u in this forum. Perhaps it is almost impossible to list all criteria for a good keris. It is subjective and u have to define your own standards. I think what u need to do is: 1. Avoid buying anything first. At least you had to spend 2 months studying first. Study the standard text (which nechesh had pointed out). It would be helpful if u can read malay or indonesian as since some good literature such as Harsrinuksmo's Ensiklopedi Keris is written in Indonesian. 2. Look at ebay kerisses everyday using all searchword and comparing prices, 3. Get to know people who are really involved in this for quite some time, find fellow colectors around etc. 4. Handle or at least look at keris pictures (lots of it) 5. Finally, set an objective on what u want to achieve in collecting. If u dont set this, u may found yourself with lots (LOTS) of kerisses in the end of the day. Theres some javaneese keris yahoo groups available. Perhaps u can meet some people through the groups. If u directly goes to the market and buy it, the probability of u got a fake is quite high. To me, keeping a few very good ones is better than having hundreds of average ones. Expensive ones does not mean good ones. (Depending on your objective and pre-selected criteria) Well, i'm not so great in this, but i think this can be used as a general rule. Good luck, Rasdan Last edited by rasdan; 7th January 2005 at 03:32 AM.

6th January 2005, 04:11 PM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hi Michael, Welcome to the forum. First off, I think you should remove any price tags on your kerises before you ask fellow forumnites of their opinions. It is sometimes quite amazing what a price tag can do to influence opinions. Anyway, to your general questions of how to tell real kerises from fake kerises, I think it depends on what your definition of a 'real' and 'fake' keris is. To me, there are no 'fakes', only poorly-made ones, or well-made ones, fanciful/'touristy' ones or traditional ones. The best way to equip yourself with the knowledge to tell the differences between kerises is to read and look at pictures. You can check up http://www.ethnographicartbooks.com/ to search for some of these kinds of books.

7th January 2005, 12:04 AM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Michael, welcome to the forum. BluErf makes some very good suggestions. The more good keris you look at, the easier it will be to tell the bad ones. I tend to agree on the issue of fakes. A keris, IMO, can be deemed a fake only if it is being presented to you as something it is not (i.e. a newly made keris being sold as 17th, 18th, 19th Century). Please remember, high quality keris are still being made, it is a living art form. A few quick points: 1. If someone is offering you a "gold" keris naga for less than many (MANY) thousands of dollars, it is not an authentic old piece. Even at the source in Jawa, high quality old pieces sell at a premium. If it's too cheap, there is probably a reason. Gold keris naga or even keris naga w/o gold adornment were NEVER commonplace in old times. 2. A keris without a seperate gonjo is NOT a basic sign of a new OR poorly made keris. Though old Gonjo Iras (one piece) keris are rare they do exist. I have a rather nice early 19thC one in my own collection. Though probably made this way to save the original buyer a little money, they have now become very collectable due to their scarcity. 3. I don't know if the blades you show are yours, but for the most part their quality appears fairly low. The keris singo in the first pic might have some age and be fairly decent, but i wouldn't be able to tell you from the provided picture. For some reason, someone stuck a Javanese mendak on the Bugis keris on the left in the second pic. If this keris is yours i would remove it as it doesn't belong on this keris. The keris naga in the third photo looks like it might have been a later addition on an older blade. It appears to be poorly carved and there are signs it is not original to the blade. 4. Here is the short list of some books you might get to help you in your appreciation of keris: a) "The World of the Javanese Keris", Garrett and Bronwen Solyom b) "The Kris", Edward Frey (get the 3rd Ed.; more photos) c) "Kris the Invincible", Vanna e Mario Ghiringhelli (small, but brillant photos) d) "The Kris-an Earthly Approach to a Cosmic Symbol", David van Duuren e) "De Kris - Magic Relic of Old Indonesia - Vol. I, II, and III", G,J.F.J. Tammens As i say, this is the short list of books written in English, but since living in Indonesia you probably know the language, you should find even more available to you. You also might find this web site of interest: http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/

7th January 2005, 05:54 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Your chances are either 100% or zero; it'll either happen or it won't; odds and statistics are for aggregate reality; don't rely on them in real life; don't be inclined to deny reality if it seems unlikely.....my two cents. Likewise, it's not uncommon to see modern pieces that are all one layered billet with continuous grain, rather than a sandwich with a central cutting steel and a seperate pamor layer on each side, but that doesn't mean no old ones are made that way. It's very hard to cook down any sort of hard and fast easily stated rule about this stuff, and harder with kris than with most things, because of the living nature of that art, because of its sense of history, because metal does not neccessarily age in any objectively definable way (ie. the level of corrosion/patination varies basically infinitely with conditions; much moreso than with time per se), because people deliberately make new ones to be like old ones (and the better of the new ones are not viewed with disregard by many keris afficionadi), and because they have served as a field for artistic variation to such an extraordinary degree for a very long time. Also, there is a great variety in interest that varies by person or community; there are k(e)ris people who consider them ruined if the "stain" is rusted or sanded off, for instance, while others might simply re-etch/re-stain, and others might prefer to oil the rust, and love it for the patina. It can be interesting how different markets or different groups can be interested in the same thing, but for different reasons, and from different angles, and kris are one of those things.

7th January 2005, 04:10 PM	#6
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Hi Rahman. I believe what i described was a keris w/o a SEPERATE gonjo, in other words, it is not a seperately forged piece of metal, the keris is all one piece. This is what i understand to be gonjo iras. I did not describe a keris that was sold w/o a gonjo, as in missing a gonjo that was originally there, if that is what you mean. I'm not sure i understand your distinction.

7th January 2005, 03:25 AM	#8
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Dear Michael Being posted to Indonesia, you're lucky to be right where the 'action' is. There's good advice about looking and feeling before buying. As a beginner myself, I've learnt a lot from the forums here. You might also want to avail yourself of the Ensaiklopedi Keris by Bambang Harsrinuksmo. It's in Bahasa Indonesia with lots of photos and lots of Javanese terminology. I think it's available at Gramedia bookstores. Re nechesh's comment about keris gonjo iras, you should differentiate between the keris with a line drawn where the ganja is suposed to be (ganja iras) and a keris sold without a ganja (as you descirbed it).