Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 13th December 2019, 10:27 AM   #1
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default Need help with translation of a " blasphemous"(?) inscription

Sold on E-Bay.
This is an Ethiopian sword with straight blade 27 1/4" long, total 32".
Was advertised as Mamluk blade.
I was intrigued by the inscriptions and asked several colleagues , native Arabic, Farsi and Urdu speakers to translate the inscriptions.
First " Arabic" person told me that it was not in Arabic.
Farsi and Urdu were similarly rejected.
But then, one of those colleagues sent pics to her friend, a Saudi Arabian guy, who told her that the only thing he could translate was "Oh Muhammed", and the rest was " blasphemous". That piqued my interest even more.
Apologize for the pic of the entire sword: that was taken when it was already sold and the pics could not be adjusted.

Asking general opinions and Kwiatek's help with translation.
Many thanks.
Attached Images
   
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 12:06 PM   #2
kwiatek
Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 153
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Sold on E-Bay.
This is an Ethiopian sword with straight blade 27 1/4" long, total 32".
Was advertised as Mamluk blade.
I was intrigued by the inscriptions and asked several colleagues , native Arabic, Farsi and Urdu speakers to translate the inscriptions.
First " Arabic" person told me that it was not in Arabic.
Farsi and Urdu were similarly rejected.
But then, one of those colleagues sent pics to her friend, a Saudi Arabian guy, who told her that the only thing he could translate was "Oh Muhammed", and the rest was " blasphemous". That piqued my interest even more.
Apologize for the pic of the entire sword: that was taken when it was already sold and the pics could not be adjusted.

Asking general opinions and Kwiatek's help with translation.
Many thanks.
It’s Arabic with lots of mistakes and done probably by a non-native speaker or by someone semi-literate.

“There’s no hero but ‘Ali, no sword but Dhu’l-Fiqar. ‘And tell the good tidings to the believers (Qur’an 61:13, in part).’ O Muhammad!”

The interesting bit is the difficult bit, of course. The last words are probably the maker’s or owner’s name. It’s spelled:

“Dhah-Kir al-Faranji”

Al-Faranji means “the European”. The first name is not an Arabic name. I can scout around to see if I can come up with anything
kwiatek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 01:46 PM   #3
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Thanks.
A semi-literate European....
What a disappointment! I hoped it might be a Kharijite " blasphemy" :-(((
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 03:54 PM   #4
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Thanks.
A semi-literate European....
What a disappointment! I hoped it might be a Kharijite " blasphemy" :-(((
I’m not very knowledgeable on the subject but the reference to Ali might be Shiite which could be ”blasphemous” in the eyes of a Saudi (Sunni)?
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 04:45 PM   #5
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
Default

Regretfully it doesn't seem to be true: Ali is venerated by both branches.
One of the most popular saying of Muhammed is " There is no hero like Ali, no sword like Zulfikar". It is written on the majority of Islamic blades coming from all over, Sunni or Shia.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 05:17 PM   #6
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Regretfully it doesn't seem to be true: Ali is venerated by both branches.
One of the most popular saying of Muhammed is " There is no hero like Ali, no sword like Zulfikar". It is written on the majority of Islamic blades coming from all over, Sunni or Shia.
But why? Ariel do you have an explanation about that?
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 05:26 PM   #7
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kwiatek
Al-Faranji means “the European”. The first name is not an Arabic name. I can scout around to see if I can come up with anything
Your translations are really cool, thanks!

Only one point, I think al faranji means the foreigner.
Of course most of the time Europeans.
The word comes from the Crusades, Franks, Faranj.
Also used Roumi, the foreigners and Christians, from the Byzantine or Easterm Roman Empire... Roumi=Romans...

So the foreigner might be an Ethiopian - Christian - but it's just my opinion...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 07:34 PM   #8
broadaxe
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 332
Default

Arab countries Jews used the term 'faranji' to describe all things European, especially attire, accessories, manners.
broadaxe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 08:19 PM   #9
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 713
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Your translations are really cool, thanks!

Only one point, I think al faranji means the foreigner.
Of course most of the time Europeans.
The word comes from the Crusades, Franks, Faranj.
Also used Roumi, the foreigners and Christians, from the Byzantine or Easterm Roman Empire... Roumi=Romans...

So the foreigner might be an Ethiopian - Christian - but it's just my opinion...
Were there Ethiopian Franks??? I think the Arabs have another word for Christian. I may be wrong but I thought Faranji would be Europeans. The meaning may have expanded to include all foreigners?
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th December 2019, 09:12 PM   #10
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,145
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix
Were there Ethiopian Franks??? I think the Arabs have another word for Christian. I may be wrong but I thought Faranji would be Europeans. The meaning may have expanded to include all foreigners?

Have you ever heard about the myth of Prester John?

Yes you are right as I said Faranji were mainly Europeans but foreigners in general, this extended outside Arab lands up to India...

(Firangi sword)


Last edited by Kubur; 14th December 2019 at 08:44 AM.
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th December 2019, 01:10 AM   #11
TVV
Member
 
TVV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Bay Area
Posts: 1,625
Default

The other side of this blade with the fullers is also quite interesting, and certainly above what we typically coming from Sudan in terms of craftsmanship. The Mameluke attribution may be a bit of a leap, but it is certainly a nicer and potentially older blade. How old and from where I am not qualified to speculate.
TVV is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:23 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.