On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types

Mercenary · 9th October 2015, 04:14 PM

I put here some theses from the article:

"Weapons sold in the 19-20th centuries at the Indian markets were certainly typologically similar to real weapons, although manufactured as souvenirs and handicrafts. Therefore the quality of information the customer learnt about the name, features, and origin of a weapon type depended on the seller`s knowledge of the weapon. The provided information must have been variable depending on the place of purchase and language spoken by the seller."

"From two independent sources the descriptions of traditional martial practices in Muslim Lucknow, which ceased to exist by the late 19th century, are known... A knife fight called "bank" is described. This fighting art had been practiced by both Indians and Muslims since long ago, but the weapon types used were different. The Indian dagger was straight and double-edged, whereas the "Arab one" was recurved and single-edged..."

"...Generally speaking, the word "katar" was a collective term for daggers and derived from the stem "kat" meaning "cut" or "wound". Some authors describe straight "stiletto-like" weapons or objects resembling the dirk (Scotch dagger) by this word (fig. 3). It is of interest to note regarding this object that Lord Egerton indicated Nepal as the place of origin of this weapon type. Indeed, there is an inexplicably great number of old Indian katars originating from Nepal. Probably, it could be explained the following way. On the morrow of the rebellion of ascetics (fakirs and sannyasis) in Bihar and Bengal, their detachments fled to Nepal, which had been used by the ascetics as a rear base during the revolt and where they had taken shelter from persecutions and replenished their forces. The rebellion managed to be eventually suppressed only when the British administration agreed with the rulers of Nepal (and Butan) to ban the armed monks from being present on their territory . As a result. the monks settled on the territory of Nepal and with the time sannyasis even started to be regarded as a separate caste. Nepal has long been a strong point of ascetics and they have been actively taking part in its military and political life."

"...The etymology of the dagger`s name "bichwa" is usually traced down to the comparison of its shape to the scorpion`s sting, suggesting that this type of weapon originates from daggers made of one-piece horn, in which a through-hole for the hand was cut. Doubts in such a treatment are possible taking into account how relatively a horn looks like a scorpion`s sting, as well as the differences in pronunciation and spelling of the word "bichwa" when defining a scorpion and a dagger type. It should rather be noted that both these words derive from one and the same term meaning "damage" or "cut" . It should be assumed that "bichwa" is the regional name of a dagger with a guard bow. It is notable that Lord Egerton uses this term to describe a common double curved Indian dagger with a side guard, in other cases calling it "khanjar" or "chilanum" , which was considered an error before."

"...The word “pata” denoting a weapon also appears in Tarikh-i-Husain Shahi (Durrani-namah), the history of the Durrani dynasty, which was worked on by Imam ud-din Husaini Chishti for several years and finished in 1798. He mentions that the Marathas had a detachment of several thousand “pathabaz” in the battle of Panipat in 1761, and this word in the Deccani language meant exactly warriors armed with swords, or “skilled” warriors..."

"...As to the sword`s name khanda the leading scholars also provide a consonant word meaning "shoulders" , which in the old Hindi language was strangely enough used as part of the phrases meaning "to injure a body" or "cut through a body". Probably it is related to damaging the upper part of the body, beheading (only leaving shoulders), or "striking from the shoulder". This kind of phrase was often used by the Indian poet Chand Bardai, who lived in the 12th century..."

Mercenary · 10th October 2015, 03:28 PM

I'm starting to think that "phul-katara" from Jahangir-namah it is simply means carved or with koftgary blade. So phrases "a jeweled khapwa with a phul-katara" means just a dagger with jeweled hilt and carved blade...

Jens Nordlunde · 10th October 2015, 05:24 PM

It is an interesting subject you have started, but a somewhat complicated one at the same time.
Under 'Pata'. The Tarikh-i-Husain Shahi was written about 1580, and about this time several of the states started to chang/or had already changed the language from Persian or Turkish to devangiri/tulu or other languages.
We must expect that Imam ud-din Husaini Chishti, about two centuries later, must have been aware of this, as the same word can mean different things in different languages.
Another thing is, that we dont know when those word started to be used for a weapon, or if it before that had another meaning.

To give you an idea of what I mean. I have a hunting sword, centuries later than the time discussed now. There is an inscription in Arabic letters, where the word 'Bahar' can be seen. In Farsi 'Bahar' means 'spring', but in Urdu it means 'plentiful'.

Looking forward to see other posts on this subject.

Jens

Mercenary · 10th October 2015, 05:57 PM

I have got it!!!!!!!! I'm absolutely sure of it, and I can prove it!!!
"Phul-katara" it is WOOTZ BLADE!!!!!!!!

Mercenary · 10th October 2015, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Under 'Pata'. The Tarikh-i-Husain Shahi was written about 1580, and about this time several of the states started to chang/or had already changed the language from Persian or Turkish to devangiri/tulu or other languages.
We must expect that Imam ud-din Husaini Chishti, about two centuries later, must have been aware of this, as the same word can mean different things in different languages.
Jens

Of course. I am searching through meny sources and clearly aware of the differences and difficulties. You are quite right it is very difficult to say anything for sure. But in the article (I hope it will be available soon) I found out something about "pata". I hope so. )))

Jens Nordlunde · 11th October 2015, 01:27 PM

About the article in post one. The author writes. "From two independent sources the descriptions of traditional martial practices in Muslim Lucknow, which ceased to exist by the late 19th century, are known." It would have been interesting to know, which two indipendent sources the author refers to.
Under katar. A pity it is not mentioned where Egerton wrote that the katars origin from Nepal and when.

In the article 'How Old is the Katar?', the Journal of Royal Armoury, Leeds. Vol. 10, no 1, 2013, it is taken back to Orissa in the 10th or 11th century.
As the Orissa katar is very primitive I would regard Deccan/South India as the place of origin.

Looking forward to see what you have found out about the 'Phul-katara'.
Elgood in his book Hindu Arms and Ritual writes on page 258. "Thackston (1999) writes there were two types of punch dagger: katar or katara, the utilitarian fighting weapon of the Mughals. Phul means flower, a reference to its decoration."

Mercenary · 11th October 2015, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

About the article in post one. The author writes. "From two independent sources the descriptions of traditional martial practices in Muslim Lucknow, which ceased to exist by the late 19th century, are known." It would have been interesting to know, which two indipendent sources the author refers to[/i]

Dear Jens
I can not put all the article here . It was published in Russian journal and I hope will be soon published in English. But I can write to you in PM.

Quote:

Under katar. A pity it is not mentioned where Egerton wrote that the katars origin from Nepal and when.

Robert Elgood in "Hindu Arms And Ritual", p. 163 wrote "For many years they were attributed to Nepal on the basis of a purchase and attribution by Egerton". Further it is very well written that this kind of dagers rather "a conservative survival".
Oh... I am sorry. In the article it is not about "jamdhar" but simple "katar" or "katari". It is about Egerton's #345 and others like it. Of course, I have got your article.

Quote:

Looking forward to see what you have found out about the 'Phul-katara'.

I will add this part of text to the article in English. May be after translate I will put this part right here.

Mercenary · 12th October 2015, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Looking forward to see what you have found out about the 'Phul-katara'.[/i]

"...Jahangir already gives a clear definition of the push dagger as a "jamdhar", as far as one can understand from the descriptions he makes of their use. At the same time, in Jahangir`s memoirs and other sources appear daggers with a "phul-katara" (a jeweled khapwa with a phul-katara). It is pointed out that apart from the something (of course hilt or sheath, not blade) studded with gems, the dagger has a "costly phul-katara" . The term "katara" - "cut"- leaves no doubt that it is the blade that the term in question is applied to. The meaning of the word "phul" - "flower", "flowery", “flourished” is etymologically related to the meanings "flowerage", "floral decorations" or "artistically done". It may also be assumed that blades decorated with carving, koftgari, or merely skillfully made ones, are meant. However by the 19th century, the term "phul" already defines a head of spear, sabre and dagger blade , and later merely a "sharp blade". That being said, it would be most likely to suppose that implied are flowery, patterned blades, that is the wootz, watered steel ones.
It should also be noted that there was a custom to call objects according to the blade material. So, for example, the term "sukhela" is not a distinct weapon type, but refers to the fact that the blade is made of "sukhela" - a combination of soft and hard iron, or, according to some sources, an inexpensive wootz steel type..."

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2015, 10:54 AM

Unfortunately my knowledge to the Indian languages is more than limited, so I can not be of much help, but years ago Robert Elgood showed me a manuscript, and if I remember correctly it was a glossery over the Indian weapon names.
I dont know if he still is working on it, or if he has given it up.
Jens

ariel · 14th October 2015, 12:29 PM

There are glossaries in both of his "indian" books. As usual, both were meticulously researched. I can safely bet that he discussed the entries with native specialists.

For an endeavor like that, especially if the topic is a multiethnic society, one needs equal fluency in languages as well as deep knowledge of history in general, local crafts and , - in particular,- weapons per se

But eventually it is the language that will be presented to the reader.
I just got an English version of the Turkish book "Sultanlarin Silahlari". Shock to the system! The author/translator had no understanding of elementary weapon terminology in English. Took me quite some time to figure out that the word "fuller" indicated the ... entire blade:-)

Glossaries serve as precision tools for a multitude of researchers and need to be obsessively accurate. Their authorship needs to be left to superspecialists of Elgood's caliber. Amateurish forays into phonetic similarities, imprecise translations and erroneous definitions are bound to confuse generations of well-meaning readers and researchers.

Ian · 14th October 2015, 01:55 PM

Well said Ariel. Confusion is an all too frequent state of mind when we amateurs play the "name game." Robert Elgood is one of the few dedicated to getting it right when it comes to edged weapons.

Ian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

....
Glossaries serve as precision tools for a multitude of researchers and need to be obsessively accurate. Their authorship needs to be left to superspecialists of Elgood's caliber. Amateurish forays into phonetic similarities, imprecise translations and erroneous definitions are bound to confuse generations of well-meaning readers and researchers.

ariel · 14th October 2015, 02:16 PM

Thanks, Ian.
Stone and van Zonneveld immediately come to mind.

Many an enthusiastic and semiliterate dilettante tried to bite Stone's ankles for real or perceived inaccuracies. But even at its worst his Glossary is heads and shoulders above the crowd. I may need a new copy soon: mine is dog-eared from long and heavy use. The best compliment for a book:-)

9th October 2015, 04:14 PM	#1
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	On the Use of Indian Terms for Identification of Weapon Types I put here some theses from the article: "Weapons sold in the 19-20th centuries at the Indian markets were certainly typologically similar to real weapons, although manufactured as souvenirs and handicrafts. Therefore the quality of information the customer learnt about the name, features, and origin of a weapon type depended on the seller`s knowledge of the weapon. The provided information must have been variable depending on the place of purchase and language spoken by the seller." "From two independent sources the descriptions of traditional martial practices in Muslim Lucknow, which ceased to exist by the late 19th century, are known... A knife fight called "bank" is described. This fighting art had been practiced by both Indians and Muslims since long ago, but the weapon types used were different. The Indian dagger was straight and double-edged, whereas the "Arab one" was recurved and single-edged..." "...Generally speaking, the word "katar" was a collective term for daggers and derived from the stem "kat" meaning "cut" or "wound". Some authors describe straight "stiletto-like" weapons or objects resembling the dirk (Scotch dagger) by this word (fig. 3). It is of interest to note regarding this object that Lord Egerton indicated Nepal as the place of origin of this weapon type. Indeed, there is an inexplicably great number of old Indian katars originating from Nepal. Probably, it could be explained the following way. On the morrow of the rebellion of ascetics (fakirs and sannyasis) in Bihar and Bengal, their detachments fled to Nepal, which had been used by the ascetics as a rear base during the revolt and where they had taken shelter from persecutions and replenished their forces. The rebellion managed to be eventually suppressed only when the British administration agreed with the rulers of Nepal (and Butan) to ban the armed monks from being present on their territory . As a result. the monks settled on the territory of Nepal and with the time sannyasis even started to be regarded as a separate caste. Nepal has long been a strong point of ascetics and they have been actively taking part in its military and political life." "...The etymology of the dagger`s name "bichwa" is usually traced down to the comparison of its shape to the scorpion`s sting, suggesting that this type of weapon originates from daggers made of one-piece horn, in which a through-hole for the hand was cut. Doubts in such a treatment are possible taking into account how relatively a horn looks like a scorpion`s sting, as well as the differences in pronunciation and spelling of the word "bichwa" when defining a scorpion and a dagger type. It should rather be noted that both these words derive from one and the same term meaning "damage" or "cut" . It should be assumed that "bichwa" is the regional name of a dagger with a guard bow. It is notable that Lord Egerton uses this term to describe a common double curved Indian dagger with a side guard, in other cases calling it "khanjar" or "chilanum" , which was considered an error before." "...The word “pata” denoting a weapon also appears in Tarikh-i-Husain Shahi (Durrani-namah), the history of the Durrani dynasty, which was worked on by Imam ud-din Husaini Chishti for several years and finished in 1798. He mentions that the Marathas had a detachment of several thousand “pathabaz” in the battle of Panipat in 1761, and this word in the Deccani language meant exactly warriors armed with swords, or “skilled” warriors..." "...As to the sword`s name khanda the leading scholars also provide a consonant word meaning "shoulders" , which in the old Hindi language was strangely enough used as part of the phrases meaning "to injure a body" or "cut through a body". Probably it is related to damaging the upper part of the body, beheading (only leaving shoulders), or "striking from the shoulder". This kind of phrase was often used by the Indian poet Chand Bardai, who lived in the 12th century..."

10th October 2015, 03:28 PM	#2
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	I'm starting to think that "phul-katara" from Jahangir-namah it is simply means carved or with koftgary blade. So phrases "a jeweled khapwa with a phul-katara" means just a dagger with jeweled hilt and carved blade...

10th October 2015, 05:24 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It is an interesting subject you have started, but a somewhat complicated one at the same time. Under 'Pata'. The Tarikh-i-Husain Shahi was written about 1580, and about this time several of the states started to chang/or had already changed the language from Persian or Turkish to devangiri/tulu or other languages. We must expect that Imam ud-din Husaini Chishti, about two centuries later, must have been aware of this, as the same word can mean different things in different languages. Another thing is, that we dont know when those word started to be used for a weapon, or if it before that had another meaning. To give you an idea of what I mean. I have a hunting sword, centuries later than the time discussed now. There is an inscription in Arabic letters, where the word 'Bahar' can be seen. In Farsi 'Bahar' means 'spring', but in Urdu it means 'plentiful'. Looking forward to see other posts on this subject. Jens

10th October 2015, 05:57 PM	#4
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 421	I have got it!!!!!!!! I'm absolutely sure of it, and I can prove it!!! "Phul-katara" it is WOOTZ BLADE!!!!!!!!

11th October 2015, 01:27 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	About the article in post one. The author writes. "From two independent sources the descriptions of traditional martial practices in Muslim Lucknow, which ceased to exist by the late 19th century, are known." It would have been interesting to know, which two indipendent sources the author refers to. Under katar. A pity it is not mentioned where Egerton wrote that the katars origin from Nepal and when. In the article 'How Old is the Katar?', the Journal of Royal Armoury, Leeds. Vol. 10, no 1, 2013, it is taken back to Orissa in the 10th or 11th century. As the Orissa katar is very primitive I would regard Deccan/South India as the place of origin. Looking forward to see what you have found out about the 'Phul-katara'. Elgood in his book Hindu Arms and Ritual writes on page 258. "Thackston (1999) writes there were two types of punch dagger: katar or katara, the utilitarian fighting weapon of the Mughals. Phul means flower, a reference to its decoration."

14th October 2015, 10:54 AM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Unfortunately my knowledge to the Indian languages is more than limited, so I can not be of much help, but years ago Robert Elgood showed me a manuscript, and if I remember correctly it was a glossery over the Indian weapon names. I dont know if he still is working on it, or if he has given it up. Jens

14th October 2015, 12:29 PM	#10
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	There are glossaries in both of his "indian" books. As usual, both were meticulously researched. I can safely bet that he discussed the entries with native specialists. For an endeavor like that, especially if the topic is a multiethnic society, one needs equal fluency in languages as well as deep knowledge of history in general, local crafts and , - in particular,- weapons per se But eventually it is the language that will be presented to the reader. I just got an English version of the Turkish book "Sultanlarin Silahlari". Shock to the system! The author/translator had no understanding of elementary weapon terminology in English. Took me quite some time to figure out that the word "fuller" indicated the ... entire blade:-) Glossaries serve as precision tools for a multitude of researchers and need to be obsessively accurate. Their authorship needs to be left to superspecialists of Elgood's caliber. Amateurish forays into phonetic similarities, imprecise translations and erroneous definitions are bound to confuse generations of well-meaning readers and researchers.

14th October 2015, 02:16 PM	#12
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks, Ian. Stone and van Zonneveld immediately come to mind. Many an enthusiastic and semiliterate dilettante tried to bite Stone's ankles for real or perceived inaccuracies. But even at its worst his Glossary is heads and shoulders above the crowd. I may need a new copy soon: mine is dog-eared from long and heavy use. The best compliment for a book:-)