Sabre washers

Tuthmose · 9th January 2022, 04:06 AM

Greetings all,

I’ve a quick (and probably painfully ignorant) question regarding the leather washers (or lack thereof) on various British and French sabres.

In my reading, I’ve come to understand that on some models, the washer seats under the shoulders of the blade, behind the ricasso, and “tightens” the entire hilt assembly. On others, it was simply a weather-seal for the scabbard.

My question: which of these is the case for a French Infantry Lower-Officers’ Model 1845 sabre? Will a missing washer loosen the grip and be difficult to replace should one wish, or is it a simple “slip on” with no real effect on structural integrity? What of a British Infantry Officers 1845, or another model that has caught my eye, the British 1821 Heavy Cavalry Trooper?

Is there some larger “rule of thumb” to tell, short of intimate knowledge of each model and variant?

Thank you in advance for indulging my questions – it is appreciated!

-Ron

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2022, 11:59 PM

Interesting topic!
I dont think there is a rule of thumb, and I think application of these fixtures sort of depends on period, makers assembly processes etc.
It seems with the 1845 (British) patterns (many M1821 still produced about then) there was a steel washer indeed for tightening hilt assembly....but over that was a leather or other material one which indeed served as a moisture guard.

In medieval times there was a rain guard at the crossguard which covered the mouth of the scabbard to prevent rain and moisture from entering.

I think for purposes of restoration, which I presume is the goal here, it would be necessary to determine this from other examples of the sword being considered. Its sounds as if there was a degree of latitude rather than any rule of thumb for all.

kronckew · 10th January 2022, 06:37 PM

I've made a few for my washer-less swords that slip over the blade by tracing the scabbard mouth on an appropriate scrap of leather glued to a piece of red felt. I then cut the outline with a sharp scissors, and using a hole punch overlapping the holes to cut out the slot for the blade. For those with the washer Under the tang shoulder, only disassembly will let you replace it properly. I do not do that. If it's loose, it stays loose…

This is (or was) a sword outfitter in London that did sword, grip, & scabbard repairs and also sold washers, can't find them online any more tho.

Will M · 10th January 2022, 11:20 PM

You can replace a leather washer that slides under the blade shoulders.
Just cut the blade hole to a shorter length, the leather will stretch over the blade and then slip under the blade shoulders. I've done this with several swords with success. A thicker leather is usually needed and you'll need to find a leather outlet such as The Identity Store Ltd (UK). I have used them for white buff leather and other leathers difficult to find.

Tuthmose · 14th January 2022, 01:36 AM

Thank you all for your insight; it is appreciated. I apologize for the late reply - being a teacher these days is . . . not fun.

I am assuming it would be difficult to tell if a washer was of the "under shoulder" type simply from pictures of a particular piece, as a missing washer would have allowed the guard to shift forwards into the gap and seat against the shoulders of the blade?

Best regards,
-Ron

Tuthmose · 29th January 2022, 03:57 PM

A minor follow-up of sorts, just in case anybody else ever has this line of inquiry and finds this post: having acquired one, I can definitely say that the leather washer on the French Infantry Adjudant 1845/55 is a weather-seal only; looking at images, it appears to be the case for many related French sabres of that period.

9th January 2022, 04:06 AM	#1
Tuthmose Member Join Date: Dec 2021 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 13	Sabre washers Greetings all, I’ve a quick (and probably painfully ignorant) question regarding the leather washers (or lack thereof) on various British and French sabres. In my reading, I’ve come to understand that on some models, the washer seats under the shoulders of the blade, behind the ricasso, and “tightens” the entire hilt assembly. On others, it was simply a weather-seal for the scabbard. My question: which of these is the case for a French Infantry Lower-Officers’ Model 1845 sabre? Will a missing washer loosen the grip and be difficult to replace should one wish, or is it a simple “slip on” with no real effect on structural integrity? What of a British Infantry Officers 1845, or another model that has caught my eye, the British 1821 Heavy Cavalry Trooper? Is there some larger “rule of thumb” to tell, short of intimate knowledge of each model and variant? Thank you in advance for indulging my questions – it is appreciated! -Ron

9th January 2022, 11:59 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Interesting topic! I dont think there is a rule of thumb, and I think application of these fixtures sort of depends on period, makers assembly processes etc. It seems with the 1845 (British) patterns (many M1821 still produced about then) there was a steel washer indeed for tightening hilt assembly....but over that was a leather or other material one which indeed served as a moisture guard. In medieval times there was a rain guard at the crossguard which covered the mouth of the scabbard to prevent rain and moisture from entering. I think for purposes of restoration, which I presume is the goal here, it would be necessary to determine this from other examples of the sword being considered. Its sounds as if there was a degree of latitude rather than any rule of thumb for all.

10th January 2022, 06:37 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	I've made a few for my washer-less swords that slip over the blade by tracing the scabbard mouth on an appropriate scrap of leather glued to a piece of red felt. I then cut the outline with a sharp scissors, and using a hole punch overlapping the holes to cut out the slot for the blade. For those with the washer Under the tang shoulder, only disassembly will let you replace it properly. I do not do that. If it's loose, it stays loose… This is (or was) a sword outfitter in London that did sword, grip, & scabbard repairs and also sold washers, can't find them online any more tho.

10th January 2022, 11:20 PM	#4
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	You can replace a leather washer that slides under the blade shoulders. Just cut the blade hole to a shorter length, the leather will stretch over the blade and then slip under the blade shoulders. I've done this with several swords with success. A thicker leather is usually needed and you'll need to find a leather outlet such as The Identity Store Ltd (UK). I have used them for white buff leather and other leathers difficult to find.

14th January 2022, 01:36 AM	#5
Tuthmose Member Join Date: Dec 2021 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 13	Thank you all for your insight; it is appreciated. I apologize for the late reply - being a teacher these days is . . . not fun. I am assuming it would be difficult to tell if a washer was of the "under shoulder" type simply from pictures of a particular piece, as a missing washer would have allowed the guard to shift forwards into the gap and seat against the shoulders of the blade? Best regards, -Ron

29th January 2022, 03:57 PM	#6
Tuthmose Member Join Date: Dec 2021 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 13	A minor follow-up of sorts, just in case anybody else ever has this line of inquiry and finds this post: having acquired one, I can definitely say that the leather washer on the French Infantry Adjudant 1845/55 is a weather-seal only; looking at images, it appears to be the case for many related French sabres of that period.