Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use?

M ELEY · 22nd January 2012, 05:35 PM

I know we have touched on this subject time and again, but I'm always curious as to other's opinions. AS a naval collector, I've always been drawn to the Spanish, Portuguese and Span colonial rapiers and broadswords of the period and their possible use at sea. Naval weapons used prior to the mid-18th century in all nations as far as specific patterns remains speculative.

-Consulting the experts, Rankin and Gilkerson do not touch upon these countries in their research. Neither does Annis.

-May's monumental two volume series mentions all about the naval power of Spain and Portugal, but mentions only the use of brass-hilted small-swords (without the colichemard blades preferred by other nval powers) being carried in the early/mid-18th centuries. As small-swords were typically a sign of rank on board ships, I am assuming these were strictly officer's swords and not what the common man would have access to in boarding/battle.

-Brinckerhoff deftly defines the forms of colonial weapons in his work, but goes on to say that colonial cup hilt rapiers were carried by foot-soldiers while the broadsword/bilbo types were carried by mounted troops. Again, no mention of what the greatest naval power in the world was carrying during their conquests. Where is the documentation of what they had access to??
His book goes on to show early 19th century Spanish cutlasses that copied both the French m1801/1833 pattern as well as brass-hilted small hangers, but this is past the time period of Spanish naval power. Interestingly, the classic short espada with it's side guard would have made an ideal sea weapon, resembling the hangers popular with other naval powers of the time period. But in this, Brinckerhoff is firm; espada were used by the rancheros and horsemen of the plains as a weapon and machete-tool.

-This lead me to automatically speculate that without any other contender, the side-arm swords of the Spanish and Portuguese armadas had to be cup-hilt rapiers. Yet, Norman says in his book that the evidence of the time shows that the rapier was a civilian weapon only! Now this might not be true for privateers/pirates and the Spanish colonial provinces (Caribbean), but is so, what weapon is left?? I am told the Knights of Malta used cup-hilts on thier barges for raids, but have yet to find more proof.

-Naval weapons prior to the mid-18th century was an open free-for-all. There are documented weapons such as artillery swords, hangers, small swords, Scottish baskethilts, infantry swords, walloons, so-called Sinclaire sabers, etc, going to sea. With this in mond, I am still convinced that the typical sailor of the time-period, regardless of country, took with him what he knew and felt comfortable with. One of the main reasons Spanish sword forms lasted as long as they did (the bilbo, double guard configuration) was because of tradition and familiarity.

Long story short (my thesis-

):I do believe cup-hilts went to sea, but it would be nice if some better proof could be produced. I am going to do more research on portraits of the time period, likewise shipwreck research on recovered artifacts next to see if this sheds any light. In the meantime, how do you weigh in???

Jim McDougall · 22nd January 2012, 10:14 PM

Yay! an essay question

This is really a great topic Mark, and I know we've touched on it many times through the years, but it remains as elusive as ever as far as tangible proof, whether swords such as the baskethilt and the cuphilt actually were used at sea.
I remember quite a few years back trying to find proof on the use of the Scottish baskethilt at sea, and no definitive results forthcoming even after contacting the National Maritime Museum and other authorities with the suggestion firmly in place, but virtually unprovable forensically.

I think with that, as you recall, the closest to proof was the account of the death of Blackbeard in which the fatal blow was struck by a Highlander among Maynards men 'using his broadsword'. We know that Maynards forces were assembled from men from the Carolinas joining his naval force, and that Highlanders with broadswords were well represented in those regions in those times from those immigrating from Scotland. However, this is perhaps the closest actual account of a Highland broadsword (baskethilt) used aboard a ship. Considering the size of these vessels I suppose this would suggest that in theory, these full sized weapons would be at least in degree feasible in actual combative situations. The fact that Scottish baskethilts were typically already japanned (painted black) or russeted to prevent rust in the damp Highlands may have also added to the favor of these type weapons for maritime use.
Annis ("Naval Swords:, p.10) also notes "...the Scottish broadsword was far from being unknown at sea". Again, this assertion is physically unsubstantiated.

Getting to the actual use of swords aboard ships, it is known of course that there were no real regulations or standards as to what edged weapons may have been used on vessels, and obviously whatever modicum of regulation might exist on naval vessels would have no bearing on merchant ships. On pirate or privateers this would be emphatically the case.
Gilkerson does note (p.108) that in the Spanish navy the long bladed rapier of the soldier was the commonest shipboard fighting blade throughout the 18th into the 19th c. This as we know is broadly assumed, and as both cuphilts with 'arming' blades and bilbos were used primarly by infantry and dismounted troops in colonial New Spain, it would be difficult to prove as there are no distinctive naval markings known (the fouled anchor only began in England about pre American Revolution). As far as I know there are no paintings or illustrations reflecting sea going weaponry from Spain from these times. We do know that while infantry and some cavalry weapons were chosen randomly, but by late in the 18th century the smallsword had become regulation for Spanish naval officers in accord with French, British and American practice of the times (Annis p.10, "Naval Swords").

As far as examples being found on shipwrecks, which would of course be ideal, I am unaware of any examples found aboard Spanish wrecks of cuphilts. As for the baskethilt, there is an example which was found on the wreck of the English "Sea Venture" off the Bahamas, which was I believe late 16th century and referenced in several articles. This was of course an early English type baskethilt, but again goes to use of the form on board. This of course may have been other than crew and simply belonging to someone aboard being transported. As Annis suggests (op.cit. p.10) many of the swords worn by officers and officials aboard ships may have been more for fashion or wear on ceremonial occasion than actual combat weapons.

In the case of most Spanish wrecks, obviously the attention is primarily toward the valuable cargo, but as far as I know no cuphilts have ever been found. There was a galleon found off Manila which surprisingly had aboard a good number of Japanese swords, but these seem to have been part of a cargo rather than in use on board by Samurai who did apparantly ally with the Spanish in some circumstances back in those early times (I forget the details). I know of a group of rapier blades found on a Spanish wreck off Panama and again these were cargo apparantly bound for the colonies for refurbishing the rapiers traditionally still in service there.

It will be good to continue the search just the same, and frankly any evidence of cuphilts or for that matter other items is usually foreshadowed by the attention to valuables where Spanish ships are involved.

Well thats my entry, I hope others will join too !!!

Great topic!!!!!

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 23rd January 2012, 02:00 AM

Hello Jim and great to hear from you! I had sent you a PM awhile back to see how you were doing. I was hoping you would come in on this. I hope others might as well. Just a few comments on your excellent and thorough essay-

-Excellent point about Maynard's crew. I hadn't thought of it in that way. Of course some of his crew would have been local, and considering that there is a strong Scot population in NC. Likewise, information on that Bahamas wreck with a broadsword type is most interesting. I'll look into that one...

-Gilkerson's comment-Wow, totally missed that one in my copy. Must have been hurrying as always. That single statement might be all we have to grasp at for now, but it does lend to the argument that said swords did go to sea.

-No naval markings on said swords to prove naval provenance. This is so typical that I don't even flinch to hear it anymore. For every sword with a naval mark, it would seem that there were far more unmarked. Given that so many generic types were produced for both the army and navy in later centuries, it stands to reason that this practice came from previous centuries. Remember that lion-pommel officer's sword I posted recently? Carried by officers of both the army and navy. I likewise have found that with the merchant fleets and private purchase of weapons, you had unmarked/non-govt issue types.

-Bummer about the shipwrecks not yielding any examples of cup-hilt, but the sailors had to have carried something. It is one thing if other rusted relics of other sword types had been found, but it sounds like no edged weapons have been recovered. The Spanish were always being set upon by pirates. They were always facing the boarding parties of the English and Dutch. Likewise, when they reached their destination, the Portuguese and Spanish sent out scouting parties of soldiers, rounded up slaves, etc. There had to be some type of weapon carried. Perhaps some will turn up on a well-preserved wreck one of these days...

M ELEY · 23rd January 2012, 04:06 PM

Having done some research myself on shipwrecks, it has become very apparent that very few sword parts from wrecks of ANY nationality survive. The Queen Anne's Revenge has yielded only one sword guard. The Whydah likewise is scant. The Atocha did have one rapier turn up, but it was a swept-hilt vs the cup-hilt I'm inquiring about. Having done some searches and learning about what survives these wrecks, it became apparent why few survive (other than the obvious corrosion of iron items).

So far, the blades recovered from these wrecks have been, as Jim pointed out, trade items in the hold. With underwater archaeology, it was become known that delicate items, such as wood-stocked guns, daggers, swords, cloth, etc, that has survived had been stored in the hold. When many of these ships sunk, the hold was rapidly buried under the sand, with many of the said artifacts protected. Arms that would have been worn by the crew were not so protected. Yes, I know most crews didn't go walking around the ship armed, but they would have been readily available (at a weapons station on deck, mounted to a mast, in a storage barrel for boarders, etc. Likewise, surviving members who were so armed would have escaped with their weapons (survival after a shipwreck on a strange coast would have depended on it). Soooo...perhaps we'll never be sure if the Spanish and Portuguese carried these sword types to sea.

Jim McDougall · 23rd January 2012, 07:11 PM

Hi Mark,
As always, good points and well placed research notes. As far as I know there have been a few cases of sword components found on some English wrecks associated with pirates, notably as mentioned the Whydah and the Henrietta Marie as well. These were of course the hunting hanger type weapons and were severely encrusted. I spent some time going through lists of Spanish wrecks and there were a few references to sword and firearm items among some inventories but no specific mention or detail. Obviously with the Spanish wrecks the focus is on treasure so the weapons were referred to as inconsequential and of little interest to interactions or information on these wrecks. Unfortunately the quest for 'treasure' soundly trumps any valuable archeological data which is held in these wreck sites in altogether too many cases. I would carefully qualify that I mean that generally as I know there are many serious divers out there who do recognize the importance of this detail, and act responsibly in matters accordingly.

Having mentioned that, I am trying to reach a friend who is one of those serious divers and was involved in dives on the Queen Annes Revenge some years ago. I am hoping he can help with data on some Spanish wrecks with his connections, but irs been some time since communicating with him.

I will point out that in the case of the QAR, the ship was abandoned by Blackbeard and he was actually 'downsizing' his forces as he was I believe intending to move toward a surrender in a pardon arrangement. It seems ironic that the events in which he was killed took place considering those circumstances. In any case, there was no reason for small arms of any kind to be left on the ship which was deliberately foundered, and the heavy cannons no longer needed for the smaller ship he transferred to, were of course left in place. I recall pestering my friend and asking 'where are the swords? you keep finding cannons!'.

The sword hilt which was subsequently found near the QAR wreck site in my opinion was collateral debris from a later period, despite the claims made in news items which allude to the possibility of actual connection to the QAR and even as far as suggesting the sword might have been Blackbeards! pure hyperbole! The hilt is of the fashionable court/hunting type with apertures for a chain guard, a feature which as far as I know was not present until after the time of Blackbeards demise. It is likely an item lost overboard in these heavily trafficked lanes at a later time.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 24th January 2012, 06:48 AM

Excellent information as always, my friend. Thank you for asking your archeology friend for what he might have found on Spanish wrecks. From the swept-hilt found on the Atocha, one can understand Gilkerson's comment on rapier-types being carried. It stands to reason that the conquestadors would have carried either broadswords or rapiers, both popular during the period.

-Treasure finds over-shadowing the 'less valuable' everyday items. You hit that one right on the head, Jim. It drives me crazy that when it comes to Spanish ships, all of the info on them concentrates on the gold, silver, precious artifacts and gems. I've even seen so-called professional articles do the same thing, where a little side note will say something like 'also found were daggers, sword hilts, cannonballs clustered together', etc, etc, with absolutely no detail. It's maddening!

-QAR dagger hilt find. Yes, we discussed this one before and I am in total agreement that it is later period and from a later wreck. Blackbeard's sword-

Right! There is a reason they call the Outer Banks the 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I'm sure if they went digging all along the shallows of Ocracoke Sound, they'd find even more unidentified wrecks. Used to know an acquaintance who dived out there and would find worm-eaten musket stocks, CW buckles, lead shot, cannon balls, etc.

22nd January 2012, 05:35 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use? I know we have touched on this subject time and again, but I'm always curious as to other's opinions. AS a naval collector, I've always been drawn to the Spanish, Portuguese and Span colonial rapiers and broadswords of the period and their possible use at sea. Naval weapons used prior to the mid-18th century in all nations as far as specific patterns remains speculative. -Consulting the experts, Rankin and Gilkerson do not touch upon these countries in their research. Neither does Annis. -May's monumental two volume series mentions all about the naval power of Spain and Portugal, but mentions only the use of brass-hilted small-swords (without the colichemard blades preferred by other nval powers) being carried in the early/mid-18th centuries. As small-swords were typically a sign of rank on board ships, I am assuming these were strictly officer's swords and not what the common man would have access to in boarding/battle. -Brinckerhoff deftly defines the forms of colonial weapons in his work, but goes on to say that colonial cup hilt rapiers were carried by foot-soldiers while the broadsword/bilbo types were carried by mounted troops. Again, no mention of what the greatest naval power in the world was carrying during their conquests. Where is the documentation of what they had access to?? His book goes on to show early 19th century Spanish cutlasses that copied both the French m1801/1833 pattern as well as brass-hilted small hangers, but this is past the time period of Spanish naval power. Interestingly, the classic short espada with it's side guard would have made an ideal sea weapon, resembling the hangers popular with other naval powers of the time period. But in this, Brinckerhoff is firm; espada were used by the rancheros and horsemen of the plains as a weapon and machete-tool. -This lead me to automatically speculate that without any other contender, the side-arm swords of the Spanish and Portuguese armadas had to be cup-hilt rapiers. Yet, Norman says in his book that the evidence of the time shows that the rapier was a civilian weapon only! Now this might not be true for privateers/pirates and the Spanish colonial provinces (Caribbean), but is so, what weapon is left?? I am told the Knights of Malta used cup-hilts on thier barges for raids, but have yet to find more proof. -Naval weapons prior to the mid-18th century was an open free-for-all. There are documented weapons such as artillery swords, hangers, small swords, Scottish baskethilts, infantry swords, walloons, so-called Sinclaire sabers, etc, going to sea. With this in mond, I am still convinced that the typical sailor of the time-period, regardless of country, took with him what he knew and felt comfortable with. One of the main reasons Spanish sword forms lasted as long as they did (the bilbo, double guard configuration) was because of tradition and familiarity. Long story short (my thesis- ):I do believe cup-hilts went to sea, but it would be nice if some better proof could be produced. I am going to do more research on portraits of the time period, likewise shipwreck research on recovered artifacts next to see if this sheds any light. In the meantime, how do you weigh in???

22nd January 2012, 10:14 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Yay! an essay question This is really a great topic Mark, and I know we've touched on it many times through the years, but it remains as elusive as ever as far as tangible proof, whether swords such as the baskethilt and the cuphilt actually were used at sea. I remember quite a few years back trying to find proof on the use of the Scottish baskethilt at sea, and no definitive results forthcoming even after contacting the National Maritime Museum and other authorities with the suggestion firmly in place, but virtually unprovable forensically. I think with that, as you recall, the closest to proof was the account of the death of Blackbeard in which the fatal blow was struck by a Highlander among Maynards men 'using his broadsword'. We know that Maynards forces were assembled from men from the Carolinas joining his naval force, and that Highlanders with broadswords were well represented in those regions in those times from those immigrating from Scotland. However, this is perhaps the closest actual account of a Highland broadsword (baskethilt) used aboard a ship. Considering the size of these vessels I suppose this would suggest that in theory, these full sized weapons would be at least in degree feasible in actual combative situations. The fact that Scottish baskethilts were typically already japanned (painted black) or russeted to prevent rust in the damp Highlands may have also added to the favor of these type weapons for maritime use. Annis ("Naval Swords:, p.10) also notes "...the Scottish broadsword was far from being unknown at sea". Again, this assertion is physically unsubstantiated. Getting to the actual use of swords aboard ships, it is known of course that there were no real regulations or standards as to what edged weapons may have been used on vessels, and obviously whatever modicum of regulation might exist on naval vessels would have no bearing on merchant ships. On pirate or privateers this would be emphatically the case. Gilkerson does note (p.108) that in the Spanish navy the long bladed rapier of the soldier was the commonest shipboard fighting blade throughout the 18th into the 19th c. This as we know is broadly assumed, and as both cuphilts with 'arming' blades and bilbos were used primarly by infantry and dismounted troops in colonial New Spain, it would be difficult to prove as there are no distinctive naval markings known (the fouled anchor only began in England about pre American Revolution). As far as I know there are no paintings or illustrations reflecting sea going weaponry from Spain from these times. We do know that while infantry and some cavalry weapons were chosen randomly, but by late in the 18th century the smallsword had become regulation for Spanish naval officers in accord with French, British and American practice of the times (Annis p.10, "Naval Swords"). As far as examples being found on shipwrecks, which would of course be ideal, I am unaware of any examples found aboard Spanish wrecks of cuphilts. As for the baskethilt, there is an example which was found on the wreck of the English "Sea Venture" off the Bahamas, which was I believe late 16th century and referenced in several articles. This was of course an early English type baskethilt, but again goes to use of the form on board. This of course may have been other than crew and simply belonging to someone aboard being transported. As Annis suggests (op.cit. p.10) many of the swords worn by officers and officials aboard ships may have been more for fashion or wear on ceremonial occasion than actual combat weapons. In the case of most Spanish wrecks, obviously the attention is primarily toward the valuable cargo, but as far as I know no cuphilts have ever been found. There was a galleon found off Manila which surprisingly had aboard a good number of Japanese swords, but these seem to have been part of a cargo rather than in use on board by Samurai who did apparantly ally with the Spanish in some circumstances back in those early times (I forget the details). I know of a group of rapier blades found on a Spanish wreck off Panama and again these were cargo apparantly bound for the colonies for refurbishing the rapiers traditionally still in service there. It will be good to continue the search just the same, and frankly any evidence of cuphilts or for that matter other items is usually foreshadowed by the attention to valuables where Spanish ships are involved. Well thats my entry, I hope others will join too !!! Great topic!!!!! All the best, Jim

23rd January 2012, 02:00 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Hello Jim and great to hear from you! I had sent you a PM awhile back to see how you were doing. I was hoping you would come in on this. I hope others might as well. Just a few comments on your excellent and thorough essay- -Excellent point about Maynard's crew. I hadn't thought of it in that way. Of course some of his crew would have been local, and considering that there is a strong Scot population in NC. Likewise, information on that Bahamas wreck with a broadsword type is most interesting. I'll look into that one... -Gilkerson's comment-Wow, totally missed that one in my copy. Must have been hurrying as always. That single statement might be all we have to grasp at for now, but it does lend to the argument that said swords did go to sea. -No naval markings on said swords to prove naval provenance. This is so typical that I don't even flinch to hear it anymore. For every sword with a naval mark, it would seem that there were far more unmarked. Given that so many generic types were produced for both the army and navy in later centuries, it stands to reason that this practice came from previous centuries. Remember that lion-pommel officer's sword I posted recently? Carried by officers of both the army and navy. I likewise have found that with the merchant fleets and private purchase of weapons, you had unmarked/non-govt issue types. -Bummer about the shipwrecks not yielding any examples of cup-hilt, but the sailors had to have carried something. It is one thing if other rusted relics of other sword types had been found, but it sounds like no edged weapons have been recovered. The Spanish were always being set upon by pirates. They were always facing the boarding parties of the English and Dutch. Likewise, when they reached their destination, the Portuguese and Spanish sent out scouting parties of soldiers, rounded up slaves, etc. There had to be some type of weapon carried. Perhaps some will turn up on a well-preserved wreck one of these days...

23rd January 2012, 04:06 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Having done some research myself on shipwrecks, it has become very apparent that very few sword parts from wrecks of ANY nationality survive. The Queen Anne's Revenge has yielded only one sword guard. The Whydah likewise is scant. The Atocha did have one rapier turn up, but it was a swept-hilt vs the cup-hilt I'm inquiring about. Having done some searches and learning about what survives these wrecks, it became apparent why few survive (other than the obvious corrosion of iron items). So far, the blades recovered from these wrecks have been, as Jim pointed out, trade items in the hold. With underwater archaeology, it was become known that delicate items, such as wood-stocked guns, daggers, swords, cloth, etc, that has survived had been stored in the hold. When many of these ships sunk, the hold was rapidly buried under the sand, with many of the said artifacts protected. Arms that would have been worn by the crew were not so protected. Yes, I know most crews didn't go walking around the ship armed, but they would have been readily available (at a weapons station on deck, mounted to a mast, in a storage barrel for boarders, etc. Likewise, surviving members who were so armed would have escaped with their weapons (survival after a shipwreck on a strange coast would have depended on it). Soooo...perhaps we'll never be sure if the Spanish and Portuguese carried these sword types to sea.

23rd January 2012, 07:11 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,955	Hi Mark, As always, good points and well placed research notes. As far as I know there have been a few cases of sword components found on some English wrecks associated with pirates, notably as mentioned the Whydah and the Henrietta Marie as well. These were of course the hunting hanger type weapons and were severely encrusted. I spent some time going through lists of Spanish wrecks and there were a few references to sword and firearm items among some inventories but no specific mention or detail. Obviously with the Spanish wrecks the focus is on treasure so the weapons were referred to as inconsequential and of little interest to interactions or information on these wrecks. Unfortunately the quest for 'treasure' soundly trumps any valuable archeological data which is held in these wreck sites in altogether too many cases. I would carefully qualify that I mean that generally as I know there are many serious divers out there who do recognize the importance of this detail, and act responsibly in matters accordingly. Having mentioned that, I am trying to reach a friend who is one of those serious divers and was involved in dives on the Queen Annes Revenge some years ago. I am hoping he can help with data on some Spanish wrecks with his connections, but irs been some time since communicating with him. I will point out that in the case of the QAR, the ship was abandoned by Blackbeard and he was actually 'downsizing' his forces as he was I believe intending to move toward a surrender in a pardon arrangement. It seems ironic that the events in which he was killed took place considering those circumstances. In any case, there was no reason for small arms of any kind to be left on the ship which was deliberately foundered, and the heavy cannons no longer needed for the smaller ship he transferred to, were of course left in place. I recall pestering my friend and asking 'where are the swords? you keep finding cannons!'. The sword hilt which was subsequently found near the QAR wreck site in my opinion was collateral debris from a later period, despite the claims made in news items which allude to the possibility of actual connection to the QAR and even as far as suggesting the sword might have been Blackbeards! pure hyperbole! The hilt is of the fashionable court/hunting type with apertures for a chain guard, a feature which as far as I know was not present until after the time of Blackbeards demise. It is likely an item lost overboard in these heavily trafficked lanes at a later time. All the best, Jim

24th January 2012, 06:48 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,101	Excellent information as always, my friend. Thank you for asking your archeology friend for what he might have found on Spanish wrecks. From the swept-hilt found on the Atocha, one can understand Gilkerson's comment on rapier-types being carried. It stands to reason that the conquestadors would have carried either broadswords or rapiers, both popular during the period. -Treasure finds over-shadowing the 'less valuable' everyday items. You hit that one right on the head, Jim. It drives me crazy that when it comes to Spanish ships, all of the info on them concentrates on the gold, silver, precious artifacts and gems. I've even seen so-called professional articles do the same thing, where a little side note will say something like 'also found were daggers, sword hilts, cannonballs clustered together', etc, etc, with absolutely no detail. It's maddening! -QAR dagger hilt find. Yes, we discussed this one before and I am in total agreement that it is later period and from a later wreck. Blackbeard's sword- Right! There is a reason they call the Outer Banks the 'Graveyard of the Atlantic'. I'm sure if they went digging all along the shallows of Ocracoke Sound, they'd find even more unidentified wrecks. Used to know an acquaintance who dived out there and would find worm-eaten musket stocks, CW buckles, lead shot, cannon balls, etc.