The Issue of Ivory

Paul de Souza · 7th October 2017, 06:09 AM

I just heard on the BBC a moment ago that the UK is planning a complete ban on ivory. This ban is universal and will also cover antique ivory even if certified to be before 1987.

Some the best keris have ivory ukiran/hulu or buntut. Actually for many quality Peninsular / Sumatra pieces, it is hard to exclude ivory. Also the finest Madura and North Java hilts I have seen are in ivory. Then there are Bali keris too with their ukiran and wrankra. I don't think Solo and Jogja uses much ivory.

Would old work now be destroyed?

How would other forms of "ivory" be affected - Marine, Hippo, Walrus etc. Honestly I can't really tell the difference. (I remember there were threads on different types of ivory but I have not looked them up yet.)

What is your opinion on this?

I hope I am not repeating an old thread.

colin henshaw · 7th October 2017, 07:40 AM

Yes, it seems there will be a complete ban on the buying and selling of ivory of any age in the UK, according to the media. With some small exceptions - quote sales to and between museums, musical instruments, items containing only a small amount of ivory, and items of significant historical, cultural or artistic value unquote. This is from the "Daily Telegraph" 6.10.17.

RobertGuy · 7th October 2017, 07:42 AM

The UK government has entered a consultation period on the issue of ivory sales, so now is the time for UK dealers and collectors to make their voices heard through their local MPs. I don't think there is yet any attempt to require old ivory pieces to be destroyed but the sale of nearly all ivory items would be banned.

Rick · 7th October 2017, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

The UK government has entered a consultation period on the issue of ivory sales, so now is the time for UK dealers and collectors to make their voices heard through their local MPs. I don't think there is yet any attempt to require old ivory pieces to be destroyed but the sale of nearly all ivory items would be banned.

To wit:
https://committeeforculturalpolicy.o...ry-repository/

mariusgmioc · 8th October 2017, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

To wit:
https://committeeforculturalpolicy.o...ry-repository/

This happens when idiocy rules!

We replaced normality and common sense with rules made by idiots and enforced by idiots. And unfortunately this trend can easily be seen in all aspects of our society.

A. G. Maisey · 8th October 2017, 08:12 AM

Yep.

I spent a lot of my life ensuring that rules fitting Marius' comments did in fact function effectively.

I've seen the bad joke from the inside.

Sajen · 8th October 2017, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

This happens when idiocy rules!

We replaced normality and common sense with rules made by idiots and enforced by idiots. And unfortunately this trend can easily be seen in all aspects of our society.

Wise words!

Rick · 8th October 2017, 04:34 PM

One more thing:
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie...b_5745994.html

David · 7th October 2017, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul de Souza

Would old work now be destroyed?

I don't really know much about this new UK ban you are mentioning, but it sounds like it is a ban of ivory commerce. It does not seem like old work with be confiscated and destroyed as far as i can logically determine. If you own ivory in your personally collection it can probably remain there. I doubt the "ivory police" are going to show up at your house and destroy it nor do i suspect that authorities will raid museum collections to do the same. Yes, it does suck if you would like to acquire an ivory keris or sell one from your collection. It does seem ridiculous that ivory that is certified as pre-CITES (or what ever gage they are using to date it) or antique should be affected and hopefully if collectors and dealers make enough of a fuss something can be amended in this ban that would permit the sale of old carved ivory artifacts.

A. G. Maisey · 7th October 2017, 09:56 PM

Ivory and the attitude of some people towards ivory has become a problem.

This latest UK initiative seems to have been generated by a couple of factors additional to the ever vocal Tree Huggers and so-called "Conservationists".

The UK is now the biggest exporter of legal ivory in the world, and there is ivory laundering activity that appears to be able to take advantage of the legal trade in ivory.

China has already taken action that will eventually see the public ivory market in China collapse.

Then there is the fact that in 2018 the UK will be hosting a very important conference on the illegal wildlife trade. If that conference were to take place in a country that still had a legal domestic trade in ivory, it might be seen by some as a somewhat embarrassing situation.

So, we have a proposal for a total ban on the trade in ivory.

As with all attempted total bans, this ban will only handicap those in the public market place, those who are compelled to abide by the written law.

When any ban is attempted on any thing for which there is still a demand, the result is absolutely foreseeable:- the sale of these banned commodities goes underground, demand increases, prices rise.

Total bans are evidence of total stupidity, stupidity which is perhaps the result of a deficiency of an understanding of history.

The answer to the ivory conundrum lays in effective management, not in ineffective rules and regulations.

7th October 2017, 06:09 AM	#1
Paul de Souza Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 65	The Issue of Ivory I just heard on the BBC a moment ago that the UK is planning a complete ban on ivory. This ban is universal and will also cover antique ivory even if certified to be before 1987. Some the best keris have ivory ukiran/hulu or buntut. Actually for many quality Peninsular / Sumatra pieces, it is hard to exclude ivory. Also the finest Madura and North Java hilts I have seen are in ivory. Then there are Bali keris too with their ukiran and wrankra. I don't think Solo and Jogja uses much ivory. Would old work now be destroyed? How would other forms of "ivory" be affected - Marine, Hippo, Walrus etc. Honestly I can't really tell the difference. (I remember there were threads on different types of ivory but I have not looked them up yet.) What is your opinion on this? I hope I am not repeating an old thread.

7th October 2017, 07:40 AM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Yes, it seems there will be a complete ban on the buying and selling of ivory of any age in the UK, according to the media. With some small exceptions - quote sales to and between museums, musical instruments, items containing only a small amount of ivory, and items of significant historical, cultural or artistic value unquote. This is from the "Daily Telegraph" 6.10.17.

7th October 2017, 07:42 AM	#3
RobertGuy Member Join Date: Aug 2015 Posts: 135	The UK government has entered a consultation period on the issue of ivory sales, so now is the time for UK dealers and collectors to make their voices heard through their local MPs. I don't think there is yet any attempt to require old ivory pieces to be destroyed but the sale of nearly all ivory items would be banned.

8th October 2017, 08:12 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Yep. I spent a lot of my life ensuring that rules fitting Marius' comments did in fact function effectively. I've seen the bad joke from the inside.

8th October 2017, 04:34 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	One more thing: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamie...b_5745994.html

7th October 2017, 09:56 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,889	Ivory and the attitude of some people towards ivory has become a problem. This latest UK initiative seems to have been generated by a couple of factors additional to the ever vocal Tree Huggers and so-called "Conservationists". The UK is now the biggest exporter of legal ivory in the world, and there is ivory laundering activity that appears to be able to take advantage of the legal trade in ivory. China has already taken action that will eventually see the public ivory market in China collapse. Then there is the fact that in 2018 the UK will be hosting a very important conference on the illegal wildlife trade. If that conference were to take place in a country that still had a legal domestic trade in ivory, it might be seen by some as a somewhat embarrassing situation. So, we have a proposal for a total ban on the trade in ivory. As with all attempted total bans, this ban will only handicap those in the public market place, those who are compelled to abide by the written law. When any ban is attempted on any thing for which there is still a demand, the result is absolutely foreseeable:- the sale of these banned commodities goes underground, demand increases, prices rise. Total bans are evidence of total stupidity, stupidity which is perhaps the result of a deficiency of an understanding of history. The answer to the ivory conundrum lays in effective management, not in ineffective rules and regulations.